inbred

[eclipsesmommy]

i asked this in another thread but i lost track of it..
it seems weird to me to pair a son/daughter back to his/her mom/dad.
not because i think its disgusting or whatever but because in humans it causes birth defects and mutations. has any research been done on inbreeding with snakes? after all,just because the snake looks good doesnt mean they're all there mentally and since they cant talk to us (oh how i wish they could) it would be hard to know unless your a dna analyzer or something.



im not hating on anyone who does it, to each his own, they wouldnt be alive anyway if you werent breeding them, etc so nobody get offended please i see alot of smarta%$ remarks here daily and im not looking to bring up any of those feelings, thanks (:

[Pulcher]

Inbreeding MOST usually does not affect the offspring but in some cases it does. Like in caramel albinos have alot of kinking because they have been inbred so much. I think if you keep the inbreeding to 3 generations and under then you should be safe.

[SGExotics]

The only time i've seen bad birth defects (no eyes, deformed head, etc..) is from brother to sister.. Sib to sib.. This is because the chromosomes are EXACTLY the same, so when bred together they sometimes lose a chromosome... But when its offspring back to parent the chromosomes AREN'T EXACTLY the same... Look at it like this... Dad (AAAA), Mom (BBBB) = Baby (AABB)... So When (AABB)x(AABB)= Deformities, The Chromosomes are exactly the same... But say offspring is bred back to the dad... (AABB)x(AAAA), as you can see the chromosomes aren't the same... Im pretty sure im right... If not, blame my science teacher...

[Tikall]

The chromosomes aren't exactly the same in sibs. Crossing over, random assortment, etc assure this. The sibs might share the same visible color traits, but they aren't genetically identical. Now they DO share more more genes than an unrelated individual because they are mixes of the same parent genes.

Over time I think we're going to see many more problems concerning inbreeding. I see ads in the classifieds selling 1.1 pairs of snakes that have been inbred continuously for 2-3 generations to get the right genes in them. Over time we're going to break down the integrity of the genes if this continues. It's happened in corns, bearded dragons, etc. US dragons are smaller than the less inbred dragons in Europe, they live shorter lives, etc. A corn isn't silly or cute because it doesn't kill its prey and proceeds to eat it live butt first.

Every time you inbreed an animal you increase the frequency of ALL genes in the line- not just the ones you're breeding for, and when bred to a related individual the chances of harmful conditions surfacing increases. You may be breeding an albino that has a very rare recessive harmful gene. If you breed its offspring back to it there is a far greater chance of this very rare harmful gene showing up in its homozygous form in the offspring. Out crossing is very important to keep the snakes healthy in the long term.

Edit: Also keep in mind that when buying 66% hets, they're likely sibs from 100% het parents, and you need to remember that it is very likely these are already at LEAST one generation inbred (unless the breeder was smart enough to get unrelated hets as you should be doing), and now you're going to inbreed the 66% het sibs? Always ask about the parents.

[Paul]

Im not sure if the same rule applies for snakes, but i know that cheetahs are extremely inbred and most of them die off because they're more prone to disease.

[americangypsy]

The chromosomes aren't exactly the same in sibs. Crossing over, random assortment, etc assure this. The sibs might share the same visible color traits, but they aren't genetically identical. Now they DO share more more genes than an unrelated individual because they are mixes of the same parent genes.

Over time I think we're going to see many more problems concerning inbreeding. I see ads in the classifieds selling 1.1 pairs of snakes that have been inbred continuously for 2-3 generations to get the right genes in them. Over time we're going to break down the integrity of the genes if this continues. It's happened in corns, bearded dragons, etc. US dragons are smaller than the less inbred dragons in Europe, they live shorter lives, etc. A corn isn't silly or cute because it doesn't kill its prey and proceeds to eat it live butt first.

Every time you inbreed an animal you increase the frequency of ALL genes in the line- not just the ones you're breeding for, and when bred to a related individual the chances of harmful conditions surfacing increases. You may be breeding an albino that has a very rare recessive harmful gene. If you breed its offspring back to it there is a far greater chance of this very rare harmful gene showing up in its homozygous form in the offspring. Out crossing is very important to keep the snakes healthy in the long term.

Edit: Also keep in mind that when buying 66% hets, they're likely sibs from 100% het parents, and you need to remember that it is very likely these are already at LEAST one generation inbred (unless the breeder was smart enough to get unrelated hets as you should be doing), and now you're going to inbreed the 66% het sibs? Always ask about the parents.

I think this is something responsible breeders should always consider after all these are living creatures not just decorations. It appears to me that the most expensive snakes tend to have less pigment /melanin "Melanin's have very diverse roles and functions in various organisms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin I often wonder how this effect the senses as well as the organic structure of these animals.Not to mention lifespan as well as quality of life . Remember the number one rule of breeding is to perfect and protect a species not just make it beautiful. That being said one of my favorite B.P. is a albino pied so I understand why we walk the tight rope .

[Tikall]

I think this is something responsible breeders should always consider after all these are living creatures not just decorations. It appears to me that the most expensive snakes tend to have less pigment /melanin "Melanin's have very diverse roles and functions in various organisms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin I often wonder how this effect the senses as well as the organic structure of these animals.Not to mention lifespan as well as quality of life . Remember the number one rule of breeding is to perfect and protect a species not just make it beautiful. That being said one of my favorite B.P. is a albino pied so I understand why we walk the tight rope .

While melanin is important in many creatures, I haven't seen evidence yet that it is necessary in captive pythons. Albino balls were first around in the early 1990s, so it is my opinion that this is a reasonable enough amount of time to tell if there are problems with the mutation. Albino burms have also been around since the mid 1980s. I think it's pretty safe to consider the mutation safe enough in captive pythons unless there is some terrible hidden secret. Of course we can't know exactly without many studies, but there are no outward signs that these snakes have problems.

But I definitely agree that we should not be doing anything to hurt the snakes. I think with enough out crossing (anything would be better than what we are currently doing) we can have healthy snakes and beautiful morphs even in another 20+ years. It will be much more expensive to make double recessives if one breeder is trying to take it on, but it would be worth it in the long run. Say for an albino pied you would need two unrelated pieds and two unrelated albinos, then you could breed the offspring of the different clutches together. You could also buy double hets from different breeders which will cost you an extra $50 for separate shipping than it would be buying related individuals from the same breeder. If you buy from a big enough breeder they might even have unrelated double hets for sale and you can save the $50. This alone would be much, much better than breeding siblings together to get a double recessive.

[Turbo Serpent]

Line breeding is mother/father x son/daughter and is less likely to cause genetic issues if done responsibly (ie only a few generations before introducing new blood) whereas inbreeding is brother x sister and is more likely to cause issues if done repeatedly without introducing new genes.

[Tikall]

Line breeding is mother/father x son/daughter and is less likely to cause genetic issues if done responsibly (ie only a few generations before introducing new blood) whereas inbreeding is brother x sister and is more likely to cause issues if done repeatedly without introducing new genes.

What exactly do you mean? You said the same thing for both- that they are harmful after a few generations without new blood, and that is impossible to tell. You are waiting for deformities on the outside to become apparent, and that just isn't going to happen all of the time. Close inbreeding has shown to have harmful side effects time and time again, so why do it to balls too?

Also those are both examples of inbreeding. Line breeding is just a nicer word for a moderate form of inbreeding. Line breeding refers to crossing distantly related animals, and inbreeding in breeder terms is crossing sib x sib, offspring x parent, and other closely related animals. You are still increasing the frequency of the genes in a particular line which is still potentially very harmful. Why would you risk the long term genetic diversity and health of the animal to save your wallet a little bit when you're already spending so much on them? Technically with some morphs that only have one founder, or the lines are incompatible, inbreeding is unavoidable, but it's better to cross distantly related animals than closely related ones.

[rabernet]

Here are a few posts and threads from similar discussions in the past:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...42&postcount=7

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=inbreeding

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...66&postcount=4

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...34&postcount=4