Upside Down Egg Experiment

[muddoc]

I got into a discussion on another forum about the orientation of the embryo in the egg when it is placed in the incubation box. As a result, I decided to perform an experiment to see what would happen if we placed an egg upside down. Below is the post that I put up in the other forum.

We are 19 days into the experiment, and below is a pic and the results. What I did was to locate the embryo in an egg that was just laid (lay date 6-13-09) and mark the embryo. I then turned the egg 180 degrees and marked the opposite side with an arrow. After 7 days, I candled the egg, and learned that the embryo had started to migrate towards the top. After 14 days, I noticed that the yolk(or mass that is usually at the bottom of the egg when laid, which I purposefully had placed at the top when I set the egg in the box)had fallen to the bottom, and I couldn't find the embryo anymore. However, I could see the eye of the snake sitting above the yolk, and the egg appeared to have "fixed" itself internally after being flipped. I will post another update in about 2 weeks, when I can see pattern on the snake, and have determined that the snake is still develop;ing, and hasn't died. This has been a fun experiment, and I hope some of us can learn from it.



p.s. I still think I am going to orient the embryos up, even after the experiment, since I have been doing that for three years, and feel comfortable doing it.

[Patrick Long]

That is actually quite cool.


So in theory, if someone were to flip an egg over that had already attached....it could infact not "drown"?

[frankykeno]

Really interesting stuff Tim!

I wonder myself though if it will be okay since the egg was flipped right after being laid and was therefore early enough to adjust itself vs what would happen if it was flipped much later in the development of the embryo. I'm thinking a flip of the egg later in development might cause umbilical tangling or ripping away of the yolk completely.

[mrshawt]

A lot of amphibs have genetic coding that determines how their embryos develop along a certain axis. This way, the embryo grows in a certain direction.

Now, I'm not sure if it relates to development this far along, but maybe...

[muddoc]

Really interesting stuff Tim!

I wonder myself though if it will be okay since the egg was flipped right after being laid and was therefore early enough to adjust itself vs what would happen if it was flipped much later in the development of the embryo. I'm thinking a flip of the egg later in development might cause umbilical tangling or ripping away of the yolk completely.

Pat,
I think Jo's explaination above probably addresses your comment. I might need to do another experiment, in which I flip the egg 24-48 hours after being laid, as I have always thought that 24 hours was the accepted thinking on not being able to rotate any longer. I will see if we have another clutch later this season that I can risk an egg for science.

A lot of amphibs have genetic coding that determines how their embryos develop along a certain axis. This way, the embryo grows in a certain direction.

Now, I'm not sure if it relates to development this far along, but maybe...

Thanks for the post. That is very interesting. Where did you obtain that info? Also, is that data specific to Ball Pythons, Reptiles in general, or eggs in general? I was just wondeing how much bearing this had on BP eggs.

[Laooda]

I really look foward to more updates on this Tim! Excellent stuff

[mrshawt]

I learned about it in relation to frogs. But there are a lot of similarities in any kind of developing embryos. Even humans have a special body axis determination. But frogs I would say are the most notable. Google up "gray crescent" and you can learn a ton about it. Crazy stuff.

Bio class by the way.

[Spaniard]

This stuff is great Tim, I really have to give you props for conducting and sharing experiments like this. I respect how freely you share your experiences and I always learn something from your posts.

[JAMills]

Tim,
Thank you for sharing this with us. It is a great experiment that most of us would not try ourselves...

[WingedWolfPsion]

Actually someone tried this over a decade ago. I cannot remember what species they tried it with, but they used many eggs, turning some immediately, some partway through incubation, etc. The article was published in Reptiles magazine (I believe--at the time, Reptile and Amphibian and the Vivarium were still running).

What they found is that there was no apparent effect on hatching rates. You see, the entire idea that an embryo can drown if an egg is turned stems from speculation. People know that reptile eggs aren't moved after they are laid, and they looked at them, and decided that there was a risk in moving them unnaturally. This guess was passed on from person to person, until it was assumed to be a fact, but it never was a confirmed fact. Marking the tops and taking care not to turn the eggs is actually only a precaution against a POSSIBLE problem.

No testing I am aware of so far has actually confirmed that it's a problem. Naturally, everyone, including me, is going to continue marking eggs and keeping them upright, because we don't want to take the chance that ANY egg might die because it was turned--even if it was one in a hundred. There's no way to be sure it could never happen.

However, there is also no reason at all to be upset if an egg is accidently moved from its original position. It will probably be just fine. As Tim's experiment proves again, they generally are.