How many mice?

[dizzy]

So I'm thinking about starting to breed mice... I've kept many pet rodents in the past, some of which I accidently bred (One of those rats I specificaly asked the petstore for a female that was def. not pregnant. Thanks guys) so I have a pretty good idea of husbandry... But there's tons of care sheets and stuff for me to read on how to set things up and care for them...

What I want to know is how many breeders should I get?

Right now I have 5 bps... 4 are 2008s and one is adult or subadult... The 2008s there are 2 large/older and 2 pretty tiny... Right now I'm feeding the small 08s 2 hoppers a week the large 08s 2 adult mice and the adult bp is on 4 mice a week... I got her recently from somebody that was mistreating her and let her get bit by a big, mean rat so I have her on mice right now to prevent her from being intimidated or bit again... I haven't read anything yet that says a rat is better or more nutritious that several mice, so I'm kinda rethinking my original plan of switching her back to rats. Can all my bps thrive on mice for their entire life? If I'm breeding myself I don't think the cost of producing several mice a week per bp would be worse than just giving them 1-2 rats per week (as adults later on) would it?

You see I've always been partial to rats.. I think they're much more intelligent and affectionate than mice... The majority of my pet rodents have been rats...

Of course for the health of my snakes I will suck it up and feed rats if need be. I've fed other snakes rats in the past... But if it's not going to hurt them to stick to mice... That would be preferable...

Sorry for being long-winded. I'll summarize my questions...

How many breeders should I start with? On about feb 17th I will be getting 4 more 08 bps, so I'll be feeding 8 youngin' and 1 adult bp.
I currently go through 4-5 hoppers and 6-8 adult mice per week. I imagine that will be near double come next month.

Do you guys feel it is okay to feel adult bps mice vs. rats?
Is it much more costly to do it that way?

How long is the reproductive cycle for mice? How long from birth to adulthood?

Thanks everyone

[Clear]

I might have skipped over it, are you feeding live or frozen? Dont ball's out grow mice and need more to fill them up? If so I would try to get them all on rats so you wont have to produce and keep so many mice! Mice have babies about ever 19 days and right now I avg about 12 babies from each mother.

[kc261]

From what I have been able to determine from a lot of reading, a lot of people believe BPs do better on rats than mice. However, people with personal experience feeding BPs only mice report that it works just fine. So far, I have only fed mice to my BPs and they all seem totally healthy with good growth rates.

You might prefer breeding rats. I chose mice because I also have corn snakes, and I really need the small mouse pinks for them. Rats are easier to breed and you won't have to breed as many since any BP can get a big enough meal from 1 appropriately sized rat. With mice, you may need to feed up to 4 at a time.

As far as numbers, I have read that it is a good idea to have 1 female rat per BP. With mice, since you'll have to feed more than 1 mouse per week per snake, you'll need more than that. Once your colony gets going good, you should get numbers at least close to what Clear reported, but it can take a while for a mouse colony to really start producing. Most people report that they didn't start getting really good results until they were on their 2nd generation.

[dizzy]

I might have skipped over it, are you feeding live or frozen? Dont ball's out grow mice and need more to fill them up? If so I would try to get them all on rats so you wont have to produce and keep so many mice! Mice have babies about ever 19 days and right now I avg about 12 babies from each mother.

Mice give birth every 19 days? Are you serious?? That's crazy!

I'm feeding live. I see no problem with feeding them live since they all eat quickly, usually they take them from my hand or tongs. The couple of them that won't strike until the mouse's feet are firmly planted on the ground still strike them quickly and I always monitor the process.

Anyway... Bps definitely outgrow mice in the sense that 1 mouse won't fill up their tummys. The adult bp is eating like 4 mice/week right now.

Does anyone have any info on whether there is a nutritional benefit to feeding rats vs. mice???

I will switch to rats if there is... And if I do switch to rats I will probably switch to frozen (for the 08s definitely. I'm not sure the adult will switch. I'm told she only eats live) and *not* breed them myself. Rats are one of my favorite animals and I'm prepared to feed rats if need be, (I wouldn't have gotten bps otherwise as it never occured to me until recently that maybe I could keep them on mice) but I'm not sure if I'm prepared to breed them. Lovable little things that they are.

So what's the cost difference between breeding my own mice... considering that each bp will eat several mice/week as adults.. VS. Buying frozen rats ???

Thank you

[Doxster]

For 5 bp's you will definatley be getting away cheaper if you buy frozen rats, no doubt in my mind.

Let's say you got 5 adult bp's (you will in a while), and let's say they average on 4 mice per week, that's 20 mice a week.

I got 3 colonies consisting of 1.5 and I don't know if I could keep up with that (I'm trying to get my gf to let me switch to rat breeding instead )

Mice ovulate every 3-5 days, the gestation period is about 3 weeks, and roughly 3 weeks before you wean them. So before we even separate them from their mom it's been 6 weeks. And let me tell you, mice at this age are small! I'd say they need at least 3 more weeks before they could be a sufficient meal for adult bp's, even though you feed multiple prey items.

I've only been breeding mice for 1½ months or so and I'm already thinking/wanting/needing to breed rats instead. If you got the space needed for rat breeding I say jump on it, but as I said earlier on, for 5 snakes you will not make any profit from breeding.

Hope this helped
-D

[Brandon Osborne]

Rats are fine as long as your balls keep eating them. Ball pythons are notorious for switching for no apparent reason at all.....especially pastels. In my experience with balls on mice, they do just fine on 3-5 adult mice per week. I have one female pastel that fed great on rats up to around 800 grams, just as all of my pastels have done. She has not even taken a live rat in 4 years, but gained 1000 grams in one year just from mice alone. Once they hit the magic weight, they seem to stop feeding for about 6 months or so, then they only want live adult mice. This has been my experience with EVERY pastel I've raised, even my pewters.

To test your animals out, you could set up one cage with 1.2 rats, and 2 cages with 1.5 mice. If your animals feed readily on rats, scrap some of the mice. I would not count out that fact that any ball python can give you feeding troubles when you least expect it.
Good luck.

[Clear]

Yup on avg mine have babies ever 19 days, sometimes sooner, and are preg within a few more days.

The Problem with feeding live and breeding, sometimes you wont have the right size, so frozen is the better option IMO. Also since they do out grow mice that means you will have to produce even more mice to feed them. More mice or any rodent = more smell. One rodent we havent spoke about is ASF, they have a lot more babies than mice and rats and are larger than mice. Just another option. AFAIK rats and mice are the same nutritional value.

As far as the cost goes, you can buy in bulk and get the price cheaper, you can get some rat pups as cheap as $.20 each when someone is having a special!

[Doxster]

I forgot to say two things in my previous post.

1. I agree with Brandon, I don't have alot of experience from feeding with rats but from my limited experience I think bp's eats better and more willingly on mice, especiellay if you keep the rodents in the same room. The feeding response is awesome!

2. Mice stink! Plain and simple, they are small evil stink bombs! Luckily I found some new wood shavings with hamp and eucalytpus in it, removes alot of the smell, it's a bit on the expensive though but well worth it when you live in a condo. With regular wood shavings you will need to clean two times a week.

-D

[Brandon Osborne]

Yup on avg mine have babies ever 19 days, sometimes sooner, and are preg within a few more days.

Gestation in mice is 21 days.

[Clear]

Gestation in mice is 21 days.

Gestation is usually 19-21 days, mine give birth on the 19th like clock work.