Culling

[rabernet]

Also, I personally don't believe that it has been proven that kinking in Caramels is genetic, as I have heard many opinions about the kinking being a developemental issue during incubation, caused by a few different factors. But, that is a whole other topic.

I guess that's what I personally don't understand, Tim - if it's a trait that's seen more often in Caramels (just assuming now - since I don't know this to be fact, but they are the ones most often mentioned with this condition - and I know other can get it too), why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

[muddoc]

I guess that's what I personally don't understand, Tim - if it's a trait that's seen more often in Caramels (just assuming now - since I don't know this to be fact, but they are the ones most often mentioned with this condition - and I know other can get it too), why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

I wasn't intending on going into it, because it does stray from the original topic, but since someone asked, I will relay a conversation that I had with another breeder. I don't know how easy it would be to determine if this was a real issue or not, but it does make some sense to me. We were discussing the common practice of incubating Caramel and Het Caramel eggs drier than normal incubation of Ball Python eggs. I told him that since I did that with my Het x Het clutch last year, and still hatched on animal with a slight kink, that I didn't know if I would continue the practice this year, as I wanted to see what would happen with a normal "wetness". His thinking was that kinking isn't necessarily gentically inhereted, but that Caramels ( i do not include Hets, because to my knowledge, kinking hasn't been a problem in Hets, that I have heard of) have week spines. As a potential result of having week spines, if you were too incubate with a wetter substrate, the eggs stay plump throuought incubation. If you incubate drier, the eggs stay slightly dimpled during incubation (this is a fine line between to dry, and potentially dehydrating the eggs, and drier than normal, leaving them slighty dented). How does this affect kinking, you ask. Well, if the eggs stay plump, then there is more internal pressure in the egg during incubation, which puts more stress on the suppossed week spine, than if the eggs are slightly dimpled. By incubating drier, you could potentially reduce the internal egg pressure, and thus apply less pressure to the spine of the developing snake.

Now, I guess the only way to really test this theory would be to somehow measure the internal egg pressure during incubation. However, that would involve some pretty expensive equipment that I don't own, so I'll just buy into the theory, and incubate the Caramel project animals slightly drier.

I hope that gave some food for thought,

[Freakie_frog]

why wouldn't incubation affect other morphs with the same frequency?

We do know that dehydrated eggs can cause hyper-melaninsam from time to time. But in truth we don't know that certain morphs don't also carry an inherit trait that causes physical defects. Like the kinking in caramels or wobbleing is spiders. If these issues are caused on the developmental stage due to the embryo's inability to properly absorb certain vitamins or produce certain amino acids that aid in RNA decoding it is possible since all reptilian function depends on the absorption of environmental heat then the increase in incubation may help in the development of those weak areas in the animals genetic disposition. Again we don't know that its not inherit from what the parents pass on to the offspring so it may be that an increase or decrease of certain factors in the mother or father help balance what is causing the issues.

Hope I didn't confuse

[MarkS]

Each decision is on a case by case basis. I don't believe that most defects are caused by weak genetics, but by incubation problems. Some are due to genetic problems, but I think they are more the exception then the rule. This past year I produced a kinked bairds rat snake. I've produced dozens and dozens of healthy bairds from this same 1.2 trio of adults over several years and have never had a problem, now that I produced one kinked snake I'm expected to euthanize it (along with it's siblings) because it may have bad genetics? Baloney.... I still have it, I'm raising it up, it's eating and pooping and shedding just fine. Once it gets big enough, I'll probably give it away to some kid who wants a pet snake. I have euthanized snakes in the past that were obviously not going to make it. Some with really severe kinks, body fused together, born with only half a jaw, etc.... Those end up in the freezer. But mild kinks that don't affect the way they live? No. I'm more likely to euthanize non-feeding runts that just waste away to nothing despite my best efforts at getting them to feed.

Mark

[soy.lor.n]

In a perfect world, yes. However, knowing the little I do about genetics, there is a 50-50 chance that normal appearing animals do not have the genetic predisposition to throw one eyed babies. Those I would give the chance to have babies. If they then threw one eyed babies, no more breeding.

Knowing people as I do, euthanizing would be only way to gaurentee no further breeding. Adoption would have to be up to the breeder who had the gene in his stock.

Same with sibs of the kinked caramels. They may or may not have the kink gene. If they breed strong normal spined babies, all the better. If they produce kinks, same as the boas.

Same for the wobbly headed spiders. Cull the wobbly ones, the rest get stronger. I can see giving them one chance to determine if they are carriers, but why breed them when you know they are?

These are not people (and some culling amongst humans would not be out of place either) no matter how much you may feel for them. They are animals that we do everything for, including introducing and inducing them to reproduce. We are responsible. In the wild I suspect most of the wobblers and one eyed guys and kinked individuals would not make it to maturity. Why reproduce deformities?

As far as quality of life goes, there is to much anthropomorphism in the reptile world. They do NOT feel the way we do, the do NOT react the way we do. The plain and simple is, we do NOT know if they are happy or healthy when deformed. All we truly know is that they CAN survive it.

Mere survival is not all there is and we simply cannot know how these creatures feel about it.

Of course, the opposite can also be argued since we do not know how they feel.

Logic dictates that less than perfect will not survive to contribute on its own.

So, for me, I'd cull if I wasn't absolutely positive that the animal in question would NEVER be bred.

So you'd also cull all albinos and het for albinos?

[SatanicIntention]

He's speaking of albino boas, who have been known to have missing eyes.

[soy.lor.n]

He's speaking of albino boas, who have been known to have missing eyes.

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

[dalvers63]

I've heard that too. I've also heard that you should put them in the refrigerator first for a few hours. So that their systems "shut down" like in brumation. Then put them in the freezer after the frig.
Anyone do that?

From the discussions I've had with reptile vets, freezing is NOT a humane way to euthanise reptiles. If I needed to put any down, I'd work out a deal with my vet to give them an overdose of anesthetic. To me, it's the only humane way for any animal, mammal or reptile.

I, personally, have no trouble with culling animals that are not healthy or would not live a comfortable life.

[Spaniard]

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

I think the difference here is that albinism is a color issue not really a physical deformity. If the snake were an albino in the wild, then yes I would see what your saying as the snake would have a hard time hunting with its natural camouflage gone, but this doesn't apply in a captivity setting.

[littleindiangirl]

Yeah, I was just talking about albinism in general which makes it very hard to survive in the wilderness. And since he said something about how anything that was less than perfect wouldn't survive, I was wondering if that included all albinos. I'm sure many of the other morphs also have problems surviving in the wild- I just happen to know that albinos of pretty much all species are at a serious disadvantage.

Albinos of diurnal species are at a disadvantage. Not so much nocturnal, since they generally are not outside during the day.

I think it was a thread here talking about how animals requiring UV light usually do not survive because too little or too much UV will kill them.

If that were the case, the animal needed specialized care because of a trait that robs them from living a normal life in respects to other animals of the same species, then yes, cull...

However, BP's are nocturnal and do not require UV lighting, so this trait in captivity does not hurt them from living a normal life, probably as much as it does in the wild. At this point, it is all just mere speculation how albino BP's get along in the wild.