RI - antibiotics and success rates

[KittyKatSuperStar]

Wonder how long he was in school? And he's useless, right?

I agree with you. I lot of herp owners have issues with vets, as I've discovered, but I believe they spent their 7 years studying for a good reason and would trust them long before anyone else. Personally I'd never be happy giving one of my snakes antibiotics that hadn't been prescribed by the vet. They know more than I do.

Also, bad news, I took my CPs back to the vet last night and my baby has also developed mouth rot as a secondary infection. Luckily it's been caught very early and I've been given iodine to clean it daily. It's heartbreaking for me to know my animals are discomfort and I'm kicking myself for putting my two CPs together, as it's Princess Peanut who infected Pickle (who now also has mouth rot). I've learnt my lesson

[rabernet]

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=58707&page=2
Baytril shot scars pics by cassandra

Excerpt from Adam:

The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections. I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.

From this post:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=589772#589772

Now whether this concentration works in boas, I don't know, since I'm not a vet - but thought I'd put it out for consideration that the burns referred to may have also been a result of a higher concentration.

[MATT FISHER REPTILES]

found this whial doing some reading around. verry cool


The Boaphile Internet

This may not be very exciting but this may be the most important E-mail I send via this little newsletter thing. Anyhow here goes!

I am not a Dr. I am barely even literate as my writings will attest. I am not a Vet or even a Vet Tech. I didn't even take Chemistry in high school (schedule conflict). Loved science and was good at it but absolutely no training or expertise in the field, but I am sharing my experience here and now. I am not recommending you follow this but am merely relaying what I have observed. There are laws I think against giving medical advise without a license. Maybe even regarding Boa medicine. I am unlicensed and only retelling what has occurred here.

As many of you know, I breed Boas. That's is, just Boas. I bred Ball Pythons once but that was really an accident. I am breeding a lot of Boas. I mean, a LOT of Boas. Every year I end up with a few Boas, which at the end of breeding season, have respiratory problems or in general get run down as a result of going through the stress of the long breeding season which, in Boas lasts from 2-5 or even up to 6 months. I have usually just watched these stressed Boas for a while keeping them slightly warmer than usual (85 degrees F or so) until the animal resumed vigorous feeding and returns to normal. Most snap out of it and take off again. However, a handful may require more TLC. I have used a number of anti- biotics with very limited success but what choice do we have but to try to do our best to take proper care of the animals we are entrusted for. I have used Amakacin, Baytril, Trimethoprim sulfa and Fortaz all with limited success. Very limited indeed. Health problems occasionally occur out of the blue at any time of the year in addition to the post breeding season. If the problem is so advanced as to be an obvious respiratory problem, it is probably quite severe and experience has taught me I have a really slim chance of curing the problem. I have had these animals to a good reptile vet for bacterial cultures and the recommended drug has been Amakacin or Baytril. These, in my experience in Boa Constrictors, have been very ineffective in bringing the animals around. Whether or not they knocked down the bacterial problem is to me irrelevant if the animal has lost the will to live. Bottom line I want the animal to spring back and do well. They seem to get so run down and just give up.

I have heard for years of the existence of a drug called Tylan or Tylosin which has been used in Burmese for chronic respiratory problems. I have heard the Burms, in some cases have been treated for months on end with this dope with good results in warding off these respiratory problems. I figured I would give it a try. I spoke with a large Python guy who said he gave 50 mg/kg of this drug every three days long term with excellent results. I decided to give it a whirl. Tylan is used in swine and cattle for a number of problems and I purchased this over the counter at a local feed store in a bottle, big enough to treat a herd of cattle along with a few sick Boas. I injected the Tylan sub q which means just under the skin. This was repeated three more times waiting three days between each injection. Normal precautions were taken with alcohol and cotton balls. The results were UNBOALIEVABLE!

Part II is the next post: *
Jeff's article continued.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Here is the remaining information:

One of the Boas I treated had had a chronic respiratory problem for about three years. This Boa was given to me by a friend of mine who was going to put her to sleep because he could not clear this up and he did not want his other animals to get this problem. She was dripping mucus from her mouth in such large quantities that she fogged up her cage glass in a matter of days after cleaning. She went into a shed and after shedding until now some 8 months later there has been absolutely no cold, no snot, nothing. She has been doing fantastic as have all the other animals I treated at that time. I had a particularly bad year last year and 11 animals with various and sundry problems which I treated with Tylan with fantastic results. Normally most of these animals would have died. They are wonderful!

Sent a preliminary copy to Dave & Tracy Barker. Dave was nice enough to sent the following response along with some additional helpful
information:

Quote:
"Hi Jeff, congrats on Volume 1, Issue 1 of the B.I.N. It is informative and interesting. Tylan was considered a wonder drug back in the mid 1970s. It cured many things that chloromycetin (our other wonder-drug back then) wouldn't touch, plus we could buy it without a prescription. It is very safe (I'm sure this isn't true, but I don't think one can over-dose it, at least I've seen it used very carelessly with no visible bad effects.) It's usually administered daily for two weeks, but I say go with what works. The thing about it is that it has little or no effect on gram-negative bacteria, which is the general type of bacteria that most-often causes disease in reptiles. But Tylan is one of few drugs that effectively treats a little-known and poorly understood group of organisms called micoplasms. Micoplasms are known to occasionally cause disease. They are difficult to culture and you have to specifically request that a culture be run for micoplasms, as they grow more slowly than bacteria. Most antibiotics have no effect on micoplasms. Most of the time Tylan is ineffective to use as a hit-or-miss antibiotic. But when it works, it can be dramatic. It would be my guess that the problems you've been seeing in your boa colony are caused by micoplasms. Just be aware that when Tylan doesn't work, it may be time to pull out the amikacin. "

Dave Barker

Perhaps Boas in particular or at least Boas here at my place have been particularly vulnerable to these microplasms. Perhaps gram negative bacteria is not so common in Boa constrictors. Who knows? I just know I am very happy to have heard about and tried Tylan which has been the "wonder drug" for my Boas coming out of the breeding season along with the stresses the breeding season brings.

Jeff Ronne

From this thread:
http://www.redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9789

[MATT FISHER REPTILES]

just in case some dont know who Jeff Ronne is, over 20 years dealing with Boas, helped write a book considered to be the Boa Bible, keeps and breed 1000's of snakes.

[Adam_Wysocki]

just in case some dont know who Jeff Ronne is, over 20 years dealing with Boas, helped write a book considered to be the Boa Bible, keeps and breed 1000's of snakes.

Matt, do you have any information about the use of tylan specifically on pythons or just boas? Have you tried tylan on pythons? Since this thread was started in the python forum of the site, it might be useful information for future viewers.

Or, maybe this thread would do better in a general herp section of the site instead of the python forum?

-adam

[MATT FISHER REPTILES]

i have only used it on one bp who came around awesome. from what i hear it is safe to use on any boid. with the same dosage scale. 1.25cc per pound of snake

[Adam_Wysocki]

i have only used it on one bp who came around awesome. from what i hear it is safe to use on any boid. with the same dosage scale. 1.25cc per pound of snake

Cool ... I'll run it by my vet and see what he thinks ... Dr. Scott Stahl (www.seavs.com) is one of the premier herp vets in the world and works with animals from many of the big breeders including Pete Kahl, Ian G, and Ralph Davis ... I know that he's a fan of using Amikacin or Baytil in combination with Fortaz for most boids that he treats with RI, but I'm sure he's aware of the work being done with Tylan. After I speak with him I'll post what he thinks.

-adam

[rabernet]

This was interesting from your post, Matt:

The thing about it is that it has little or no effect on gram-negative bacteria, which is the general type of bacteria that most-often causes disease in reptiles.

Micoplasms are known to occasionally cause disease. They are difficult to culture and you have to specifically request that a culture be run for micoplasms, as they grow more slowly than bacteria. Most antibiotics have no effect on micoplasms. Most of the time Tylan is ineffective to use as a hit-or-miss antibiotic. But when it works, it can be dramatic. It would be my guess that the problems you've been seeing in your boa colony are caused by micoplasms. Just be aware that when Tylan doesn't work, it may be time to pull out the amikacin. .

I think I'd be far more comfortable taking my animals to the vet to get cultures done and the appropriate medication prescribed, rather than using something that is ineffective "most of the time" and is a "hit-or-miss antibiotic" (according to Dave Baker in the post you provided) and risk their RI advancing if the Tylan were hit or miss in my case as well.

Adam, I look forward to hearing what Dr. Stahl has to say too!

[SatanicIntention]

Like I said in the first place; vet, culture, proper antibiotics, snake is treated and healthy. None of this piddling around hooey, giving shots of swine antibiotics(for mYcoplasmosis), and hoping they work, when all you're causing is resistance to antibiotics as that bacteria gets stronger and stronger.

If you read up on Amikacin, it's VERY hard on the kidneys when injected. Nebulized, it's not as bad. I'd rather use something else that worked and was gentler on their system.

And Matt, please get your info straight on Mycoplasma bacteria, it's a gram positive bacteria that is easily killed by fluoroquinolones, such as Baytril, which is why Baytril is preferred when an animal has Myco(such as in rats). Baytril breaks down the cell wall and thus, the bacterium dies. Tylan doesn't work with gram POSITIVE bacteria, such as Clostridium sp. It does work for Strep-based bacteria, but that's about as far as its efficacy goes.

[Adam_Wysocki]

If you read up on Amikacin, it's VERY hard on the kidneys when injected. Nebulized, it's not as bad. I'd rather use something else that worked and was gentler on their system.

I'm a fan of Enroflaxin as a first course for most gram neg infections ... I've also read the literature and have heard the warnings about Amikacin for over 10 years ... I also have a ton of practical experience using Amikacin without any problems ... If it's necessary and used correctly, I have no hesitation using it.

-adam