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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran recycling goddess's Avatar
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    breeding back to back litters

    our conversation continued on from this thread: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...0&page=1&pp=10

    Quote Originally Posted by frankykeno
    Well to be honest in the wild the adult females aren't confined in a small area with a breeding male either so comparing wild reproduction to captive breeding just doesn't work.

    For me leaving an adult male rat in with a female with a litter doesn't work. I don't need or want that kind of rat production going on or want my females breeding back to back or being harrassed to breed while nursing young. I believe it helps my females be healthier if they are bred less often and their offspring to be better nutured by her body both in utero and during nursing. For me, it makes sense that a stronger female rat produces stronger pinks that grow into stronger feeders. It's also part of my philosophy on to not allow breeding if I think it compromises any creatures wellbeing and yes guys, that includes rats. These aren't purely pets to me, they have a job in our home to produce feeders for the snakes but they aren't living in a production environment either. Works for me, doesn't have to work for anybody else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougie
    Not entirely true. Think about the places that you see rats and mice at in the wild. A lot of times there is a massive infestation (ie. over-run houses), so my guess is that they are almost instantly pregnant again under those circumstances. It would be interesting to see some type of scientific approach to see if life-spans are decreased by this, since right now it is only speculation.

    in the wild rats don't live as long due to predators (and of course exterminators) ...
    in light, Aleesha




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  2. #2
    BPnet Veteran frankykeno's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    Again, for me comparing what happens in any given wild/feral population against what you are attempting to do under controlled captive breeding situations just doesn't wash. Your pet cat that is well cared for given the right set of circumstances (well actually the wrong ones) if allowed to overbreed would soon suffer from constant litter production. I believe she would then produce subsequent litters of a lower quality due to her own less than perfect health factored in.

    My point is that each of us can and should manage our rat colonies as we prefer for the results we are focusing on and under the conditions we feel most comfortable with. For me and the smaller colony I manage, back to back breeding isn't a method Mike or I use. Good rat production numbers taking into account quality and quantity of feeders produced and over all long term health of the producing female is the balance we strive for.
    ~~Joanna~~

  3. #3
    BPnet Veteran TekWarren's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    I agree with Jo, and I'm sure many others can relate. These animals are NOT in the wild so many of the variables of the "wild" are just not in play. Most of us who breed rodents and have been doing so for a long time do not experience these shorter life spans you speak of. Generally many of us who breed also "retire" females from breeding at a point. Even so in my smaller groups there are enough females to a single male that one single female is not going to be giving birth of another litter that quickly after its last they don't get a chance to recuperate.
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  4. #4
    BPnet Veteran recycling goddess's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    Quote Originally Posted by TekWarren
    ...

    That said I don't know of anyone off hand that is breeding rodents for reptile food that removes their males after their females start giving birth...I sure as heck don't. I need a constant supply and have never personally seen a decrease in the lifespan of my breeding colonies or in their health. There are plenty of other females in the breeding groups that I would say that this would be a rare issue...at least in my practices.
    i don't think i understand what you are saying... cause your post above this one and the quote... don't seem to be saying the same thing... perhaps i'm misunderstanding?
    in light, Aleesha




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  5. #5
    BPnet Veteran frankykeno's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    I may be wrong here Aleesha but I think what Heath means is that there's enough females in with each of his male rats that the male is not right on the female after she gives birth as there's other more accessible females for the male to mate with at any given time. I could be out in left field but that's the meaning I got from his post. I know with mice breeding you must leave the male in as removing and reintroducing him can get him killed off by the females in a stable colony. Actually since male rats are incredibly good parents I can see the concept as long as each male had enough females and there was enough room for the whole group of them. Not something I can manage with my limited room but something to think about if done properly. As long as you get good results with healthy breeders and feeders, you can't argue that. I'm always open to new ways to manage a larger colony as my only experince thus far is with less than 60 rats at any given time.
    ~~Joanna~~

  6. #6
    BPnet Veteran TekWarren's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    Jo is dead on. In one statement I am saying that I have not heard of many (any) people who require a steady constant supply of rodents for their reptiles that will remove the males from their rodent colonies. I'll speak for myself only here: I have pretty large tubs for my rodents so there is more room than some people provide in rack systems for rodents. In my mouse tubs I have 1.5, I could easily do more but these females have huge litters so I like for them to have the extra room. It is rare for my females to conceive again directly after having the current litter. The male is busy enough with other females...or with just being a mouse. I've not experienced in my rodents a super um..."aroused" mouse that's sole purpose is to reproduce. They spend time socializing and doing what mice do just as much as the females. The only case I could see your concern coming into play is with a 1.1 pair of rodents and even in cases such as that I have still not seen an instance where the female did not have time to recouperate.

    It boils down to management practices, and more importantly health as to how successful breeding colonies are. If my rodents where not successful or lived short lifespans it simply wouldn't be worth it to continue such operations. I have awesome rodents and large healthy litters so I must know at least little bit about what I'm doing.
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    BPnet Veteran Wild Bill's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    I never remove males or females from breeding groups. The same as TekWarren I have never had a female have consecutive litters. I keep groups of 1.3 rats and 1.5 mice. I really do believe the males leave the nursing mom's alone and "harass" the ladies with no babies. But those are my personal observations.
    "Wild" Bill Hicok

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  8. #8
    BPnet Veteran recycling goddess's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    and tekwarren... you are talking about mice, not rats.

    any pics so we can get a better idea of what you're saying? i'd really appreciate it.
    in light, Aleesha




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  9. #9
    BPnet Veteran Jeanne's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    I had and ran my own rattery for pet purposes at one time, had over 100 rats at any given time..mostly youngins ofcourse....

    IME, male rats WILL impregnate a female pretty much IMMEDIATELY after giving birth, they go into heat sooner than most realize after giving birth. A males only intent and interest is to procreate if the female is not already pregnant... friendship and what not come after procreation for them. Too many consecutive litters, meaning, the female becomes pregnant while nursing a current litter... will eventually show its wear and tear on thier bodies..... I personally have seen this in others stock, not my own. The wear and tear I am speaking of comes in the form of smaller litters, sickly litters and sickly Momma's b/c thier bodies are in need of a rest..... this also can shorten thier life span. Often, a female will wean her babies too soon b/c she knows she has another litter on the way.... If it is felt neccessary to let a female become pregnant right after delivering a litter, then perhaps some thought about getting more females to meet your snakes feeding needs is a wise idea rather than having to deal with the above issues I mentioned. Just because they can become pregnant soon after delivery, does not mean it is healthy, safe or even fair to the animal... even though they are "just" feeders as some may feel, it is also the responsiblity of the keeper to do whats right by the animals . It is cruel to do anything other than care for it appropriately, even if it is "just a feeder".

    Think of it this way: Would you like to stay pregnant constantly?
    *Jeanne*

    "To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe"

  10. #10
    BPnet Veteran SnakeySnakeSnake's Avatar
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    Re: breeding back to back litters

    I guess I can chime in here

    current setup:

    I have 24 breeder racks and I keep ~ 1 male and 6 females in each 3'x2' tub

    As soon as I see the females are fat, or if they sneak by and give birth, I pull them out and put them in their own tub to raise their babies.

    If the mother gives birth in the breeding tub, about 1 out of 6 times she will get re-pregnant and give birth when the babies are 3 weeks old.

    I breed a constant supply of rats, working up to 360 breeding females. When I leave my females w/ babies in with my males, they tend to get trampled/fought over. If I wanted to keep 1 male for every 3 femaels in another tub I am sure it would work. But like most of the breeders I talk to locally, I am switching to a larger setup where I will have 2 males and 20 females (or so) in a larger breeding cage.

    So that being said... if I left my females in with my males I would expect 10-20% of my females to "double pop" (as my wife and I call it), but it isn't enough of an issue to really worry about... chances of it happening to two females twice in a row, would be more like 1-4% so not a major worry about stress on the female.

    So basically, don't plan it, but I wouldn't make huge efforts to avoid it, as it isn't that common.


    PS My numbers are approx... I have about 250+ breeding females
    bryan

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