I think my snake loves me

[Kristy]

Instinct.....

Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened.

[xxCyxx]

Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened.

But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.

Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?

Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.

They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.

Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.

Personally I think some people just don't spend enough time with their snakes.

[Kristy]

But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.

Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?

Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.

They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.

Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.

Personally I think some people just don't spend enough time with their snakes.

Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.

But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened.

Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
Kristy

[xxCyxx]

Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.

But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened.

Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
Kristy

Then excuse me for taking it as such.

I still just think they have the capability to love in their own way. Honestly, Puppy has never once balled up in my presence. I take that to mean that he does not view me as a threat. That, along with his other actions towards me, lead me to believe that while he might not love me as one human loves another, he does feel some form of that emotion towards me, in his own way.

My opinion, based on my own observations and my own snake's actions.

[Kristy]

I get exactly what you are saying about Puppy, people like you and threads like these always make me question my own beliefs as far as this topic goes. Main reason being, is that we can only percieve (sp?) love as we feel it and we experience it. Then when a thread like this comes up we automatically assume that when someone asks about love and reptiles that they are talking about human love.

Then there is someone like you xxcyxx that kind of changes my perspective about the whole thing. When you put it as you do, reptiles loving in there own little way, it makes me question it. Thank you for that because I can be too stubborn sometimes to see another persons point of view.

But on subject of Puppy, and the way he reacts to you reminds me of Houdini. He is okay with my husband and my son, he sees them and is around them almost daily. But any other men and he goes batty. Gets aggitated, ansy and wont sit still. He is not like this with females at all, any female (human) my mom loves to hold him never once aggressive towards her or any other female. But god forbid a man should try and handle him.

So thinking of it from the animals point of view opens up a whole new world of questions. Maybe we should really look at the emotions from the reptiles perspective and not our own. At least I should lol
Kristy

[danigurrl]

But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it? Yes, I do. And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.

The idea of love encompasses many things. To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.

Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth.

A agree with these statements. I voted my bp loves me. I think some recognize certain people as not being a threat, therefore they 'open up.'

I think some people (no one specificly) are tying the Webster's defined human emotion of love to tightly. Its sort of a tunnel vision view (is that repeating myself? vision, view....anyway... lol.)

My normal bp has some sort of respect/recognition/'love' for me since he only comes out of his hides for me (when he sees me hes instantly roaming around his viv poking the screen of the tank as if to say "Let me out!") I don't know if its my scent, my heat, my voice (if snakes can distinguish sounds well enough.) I live in a house where there are many other people coming in and out of the herp room, who also feed and handle the snakes. For some reason tho, this bp will comes out for me and sit with me for hours, while he fidgets when other people handle him.

Through my experice with my herp collection, I have a few specimens who I believe have some type of bonding/comfort with me. Others are completely instinctive and emotionally void in every sense of a sterotypical wild snake.

Its tough to explain without making a 100 page post. Do I think any of my snakes experience love like a puppy would, or like I love a painting, a boyfriend, a family member, or pasta? Of course not. Love is what an individual defines it to be. If someone wants to make the connection with their herp and see it as having some sort of comfort and respect with them, whats wrong with it? It doesn't make the owner crazy, its just a different point of view.

[xxCyxx]

Exactly =] I'm glad you get what I'm saying.

And don't worry. I can be pretty stubborn myself. Especially when it comes to my snakes. Just being around them the way I have been, and seeing them, comparing them to other people's snakes... I retain that they have emotions. Not broad or strong ones. But they do.

[nebby3103]

I think the problem here is that everyone defines love differently. Love is just a concept or construct. We're not talking about humans loving humans, but suppose we were. What does it actually mean to love someone?

You only kiss them, no one else? You would take a bullet for them? You have children together? All of the above and much, much more?

I think 'snake love' needs to be operationally defined on a much simpler level than human love before we can decide whether we believe our snakes love us. If we could all agree on some such operational definition, than we would all be on the same page when we say "it loves me," or, "it loves me not." We all know snakes aren't capable of loving in the same way as people.

So, I define 'snake love' as a snake's ability to recognize a person as nonthreatening and to react accordingly (i.e. by not trying to eat you). Using that as my definition, which seems appropriate since we're talking about a reptile, I would say my snake loves me. It reacts differently to me than it does to others, seemingly indicating a preference for me. Probably because I'm not a threat. There you have it, 'snake love.' Very different than human love, hence we have to use a different definition.

Like I said, the problem is coming up with an operational defnition of 'snake love' upon which everyone agrees.

I can't sleep, just some thoughts.

[repforlife]

O.k i really was going to just not get into this subject,but here it is,Yes they do have feelings if you want to call basic emotions feelings,they get hurt just like we do,they have temper flares just like we do,and yes they feel pleasure.Now i understand that people think that all reptiles are mindless zombies who live off instinc,this is not true and far from the truth.They have a social structure with in and need stimulation to have a well being.Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?We are animals no matter what everyone thinks.Reptiles are no different,they play,they do feel,and they do have basic feelings and emotions.Scientist beg to differ,because they onley look at one side,which is the scientific end of it all.I beg to differ,because my reptiles in one way or another show me emotion and inteligents.

[Aric]

Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?

Sorry to hear that but does that mean you housed them together?