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  1. #81
    BPnet Veteran Dave763's Avatar
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.
    I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed.
    Just feed live. Ball pythons constrict....duh. The rats can't breathe, they pass out from no oxygen to the brain or thier heart stops. Its all over pretty fast. The way nature intended them to die.

  2. #82
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave763 View Post
    My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.
    I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed.
    The use of dry ice in killing mice is inhumane according to the 2007 American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia, plain and simple.

    I know that I am new here and not one of the regulars, however, this sticky should be removed if we care about the humane treatment of animals.

    Compressed CO2 gas in containers is the only humane way to euthanize mice.

  3. #83
    BPnet Veteran Dave763's Avatar
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    A little copy/paste action.


    Time to loss of consciousness is decreased by use of higher concentrations of CO2 with an 80 to 100% concentration providing anesthesia in 12 to 33 seconds in rats and 70% CO2 in O2 inducing anesthesia in 40 to 50 seconds.61,62 Time to loss of consciousness will be longer if the concentration is increased slowly rather than immersing the animal in the full concentration immediately

    Advantages—(1) The rapid depressant, analgesic, and anesthetic effects of CO2 are well established. (2) Carbon dioxide is readily available and can be purchased
    in compressed gas cylinders. (3) Carbon dioxide is inexpensive, nonflammable, nonexplosive, and poses minimal hazard to personnel when used with properly designed equipment. (4) Carbon dioxide does not result in accumulation of tissue residues in food-producing animals. (5) Carbon dioxide euthanasia does not distort murine cholinergic markers82 or corticosterone concentrations.83
    Disadvantages—(1) Because CO2 is heavier than air, incomplete filling of a chamber may permit animals to climb or raise their heads above the higher concentrations and avoid exposure. (2) Some species, such as fish and burrowing and diving mammals, may have extraordinary tolerance for CO2. (3) Reptiles and amphibians may breathe too slowly for the use of CO2. (4) Euthanasia by exposure
    to CO2 may take longer than euthanasia by other means.61 (5) Induction of loss of consciousness at lower concentrations (< 80%) may produce pulmonary
    and upper respiratory tract lesions.67,84 (6) High concentrations of CO2 may be distressful to some animals.
    Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended
    source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable. Species should be separated and chambers should not be overcrowded. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute.85 Loss of consciousness
    may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by pre-filling the chamber for species in which this has not been shown to cause distress. Gas flow should bemaintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death.86 It is important to verify that an animal is dead before removing it from the chamber. If an animal is not dead, CO2 narcosis must be followed with another method of euthanasia. Adding O2 to the CO2 may or may not preclude signs of distress.67,87 Additional O2 will, however, prolong time to death and may complicate
    determination of consciousness. There appears to be no advantage to combining O2 with carbon dioxide for euthanasia.87

  4. #84
    Steel Magnolia rabernet's Avatar
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave763 View Post
    My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.
    I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed.
    Just feed live. Ball pythons constrict....duh. The rats can't breathe, they pass out from no oxygen to the brain or thier heart stops. Its all over pretty fast. The way nature intended them to die.
    Would this be your earlier un-deleted post? As there's no reason, nor history of any staff member deleting any of your posts.

    http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...53&postcount=7

  5. #85
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave763 View Post
    Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. Loss of consciousness may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by pre-filling the chamber for species in which this has not been shown to cause distress. Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death. It is important to verify that an animal is dead before removing it from the chamber.
    Excellent post Dave. This just goes to prove why compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is humane - it can be precisely regulated.

    And it shows why using dry ice is extremely inhumane to the mice - there is no way whatsoever that the flow rate of the CO2 can be precisely regulated and the mice can suffer a horrible and agonizing death.

  6. #86
    BPnet Veteran elevatethis's Avatar
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    "Extremely inhumane" "horrible and agonizing"....LOL. What are you trying to prove?

    I've used this method many times over and not once did I observe any distress at any time during the process.

    Sure, you can't regulate it, but the rate of sublimation of dry ice is so slow in normal room temperature that the concentration of CO2 doesn't build up very fast, and thats the whole idea.

    Both methods can be made to work. Using dry ice is simply the "easier" way. Less set-up, equipment, etc.
    -Brad

  7. #87
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by elevatethis View Post
    "Extremely inhumane" "horrible and agonizing"....LOL. What are you trying to prove?

    I've used this method many times over and not once did I observe any distress at any time during the process.

    Sure, you can't regulate it, but the rate of sublimation of dry ice is so slow in normal room temperature that the concentration of CO2 doesn't build up very fast, and thats the whole idea.

    Both methods can be made to work. Using dry ice is simply the "easier" way. Less set-up, equipment, etc.
    All I care about are the animals and that they are treated humanely, whether as pets or when being euthanized.

    If the American Veterinary Medical Association's (AVMA) Guidelines on Euthanasia clearly states that using dry ice to euthanize mice is unacceptable, then it is inhumane to do so. How can you disagree with that? Are you a veterinarian or a member of the AVMA?

    The only acceptable method by the AVMA of administrating CO2 is by compressed CO2 gas in cylinders, and that is the way I do it and I can sleep well knowing that I treated the animals in a humane way.

    Just because using dry ice is easier and is less set-up for you, doesn't make it right. It just tells me that you are not willing to take the extra steps and spend the extra money to euthanize the mice humanely.

    You asked me what am I trying to prove? I am pointing out what the AVMA's Guidelines on Euthanasia are stating regarding the use of CO2 in euthanizing mice. I respectfully suggest that you no longer use dry ice, and that you use compressed CO2 gas in cylinders or buy frozen mice.

    Here is a link to an excellent DIY CO2 chamber: http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

  8. #88
    BPnet Veteran Dave763's Avatar
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabernet View Post
    Would this be your earlier un-deleted post? As there's no reason, nor history of any staff member deleting any of your posts.

    http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...53&postcount=7
    No that's not it...
    I figure it was me clicking preview post instead of submit. Sorry ....

  9. #89
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    where can one get dry ice?
    ~Just Call Me RJ~

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  10. #90
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    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Our local walmart sells it for like $1.25 per pound.

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