Vote for BP.Net for the 2013 Forum of the Year! Click here for more info.

» Site Navigation

» Home
 > FAQ

» Online Users: 175

12 members and 163 guests
Most users ever online was 3,642, 05-08-2016 at 08:50 AM.


» Today's Birthdays

None

» Stats

Members: 64,027
Threads: 238,124
Posts: 2,473,497
Top Poster: JLC (31,652)
Welcome to our newest member, LemonBlast91
Page 10 of 18 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415161718 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 175
  1. #91
    BPnet Veteran nixer's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-28-2007
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    2,861
    Thanks
    339
    Thanked 328 Times in 294 Posts
    Images: 3

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx View Post
    All I care about are the animals and that they are treated humanely, whether as pets or when being euthanized.

    If the American Veterinary Medical Association's (AVMA) Guidelines on Euthanasia clearly states that using dry ice to euthanize mice is unacceptable, then it is inhumane to do so. How can you disagree with that? Are you a veterinarian or a member of the AVMA?

    The only acceptable method by the AVMA of administrating CO2 is by compressed CO2 gas in cylinders, and that is the way I do it and I can sleep well knowing that I treated the animals in a humane way.

    Just because using dry ice is easier and is less set-up for you, doesn't make it right. It just tells me that you are not willing to take the extra steps and spend the extra money to euthanize the mice humanely.

    You asked me what am I trying to prove? I am pointing out what the AVMA's Guidelines on Euthanasia are stating regarding the use of CO2 in euthanizing mice. I respectfully suggest that you no longer use dry ice, and that you use compressed CO2 gas in cylinders or buy frozen mice.

    Here is a link to an excellent DIY CO2 chamber: http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm
    yet 90% of them couldnt care for a reptile if they had to. thats total b.s.

  2. #92
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-29-2008
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by nixer View Post
    yet 90% of them couldnt care for a reptile if they had to. thats total b.s.
    What is your point nixer?

    Are you saying that the mice shouldn't be euthanized in a humane way because, in your opinion, veterinarians do not know how to care for a reptile?

    I guess the mice should suffer an inhumane death because you think veterinarians can't care for reptiles. What are you talking about?

    I don't follow your logic at all!!!

  3. #93
    BPnet Veteran littleindiangirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-31-2007
    Location
    Michigan ~ Ahoy!
    Posts
    8,201
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 794 Times in 487 Posts
    Images: 25

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx View Post
    What is your point nixer?

    Are you saying that the mice shouldn't be euthanized in a humane way because, in your opinion, veterinarians do not know how to care for a reptile?

    I guess the mice should suffer an inhumane death because you think veterinarians can't care for reptiles. What are you talking about?

    I don't follow your logic at all!!!
    Tyler, I suggest you read thoroughly the AVMA section on the use of CO2. The text is not concrete, and is open to interpretation, which we have all done, either for or against dry ice.

    I personally believe CO2 by the dry ice method is also humane. No where in their text to they explicitly say that it is inhumane, nor do they hint at it. They simply say that for reasons of control, it is not acceptable.

    You may have taken this to mean it is inhumane, but if you were to read the complete text of the article, you would know that where they find a method inhumane, they explicitly say so and why. I do not feel they leave those methods open to speculation.

    There is only that small mention of dry ice, no where else do they mention it, also, it is not at the end of the article in the unapproved methods.


    Now. Back to my interpretation.

    They do mention that they only recommend the use of a regulator as the only acceptable means, however....

    Time to loss of consciousness is decreased by use of higher concentrations of CO2 with an 80 to 100% concentration providing anesthesia in 12 to 33 seconds in rats and 70% CO2 in O2 inducing anesthesia in 40 to 50 seconds...
    ...Time to loss of consciousness will be longer if the concentration is increased slowly rather than immersing the animal in the full concentration immediately.
    And,

    Several investigators have suggested that inhalation of high concentrations of CO2 may be distressing to animals, because the gas dissolves in moisture on the nasal mucosa. The resulting product, carbonic acid, may stimulate nociceptors in the nasal mucosa.

    A brief study of swine examined the aversive nature of CO2 exposure and found that 90% CO2 was aversive to pigs while 30% was not. For rats, exposure to increasing concentrations of CO2 (33% achieved after 1 minute) in their home cage produced no evident stress as measured by behavior and ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone concentrations in serum
    They do not mention anywhere what the levels of CO2 production are for dry ice, but I hazard a guess a search would find this information.

    I will take a stab in the dark and say the CO2 released is very high in percentage, which allows for a short time to unconsciousness, approx 15-33 seconds (AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia, pg. 8) and falls into their guidelines of being a humane way to dispatch rodents.

    If you find concrete proof that the CO2 being given off by dry ice falls below the rate or concentration percentage they mention in the article I will concede. Until then, I do not think you can say that using dry ice is inhumane when used properly like directed in this thread.

    My .02 cents.
    Last edited by littleindiangirl; 03-19-2009 at 01:56 PM.

  4. #94
    BPnet Veteran elevatethis's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-18-2004
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    4,348
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 82 Times in 20 Posts
    Images: 39

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Connie, thanks for more eloquently stating what I tried to say in a post some number of months ago on this thread.

    Unless you drop the brick of co2 into hot water, the rate of sublimination is so low that you would expect the concentration to rise at the same rate or lower than that of what is recommended for a regulated CO2 chamber. CO2 sublimination is highly dependent upon environmental conditions - I don't blame the AVMA for being unable to officially recommend it. Common sense along with a little background knowledge can go a long way.
    -Brad

  5. #95
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-29-2008
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by littleindiangirl View Post
    Tyler, I suggest you read thoroughly the AVMA section on the use of CO2. The text is not concrete, and is open to interpretation, which we have all done, either for or against dry ice.

    I personally believe CO2 by the dry ice method is also humane. No where in their text to they explicitly say that it is inhumane, nor do they hint at it. They simply say that for reasons of control, it is not acceptable.

    You may have taken this to mean it is inhumane, but if you were to read the complete text of the article, you would know that where they find a method inhumane, they explicitly say so and why. I do not feel they leave those methods open to speculation.

    There is only that small mention of dry ice, no where else do they mention it, also, it is not at the end of the article in the unapproved methods.


    Now. Back to my interpretation.

    They do mention that they only recommend the use of a regulator as the only acceptable means, however....



    And,



    They do not mention anywhere what the levels of CO2 production are for dry ice, but I hazard a guess a search would find this information.

    I will take a stab in the dark and say the CO2 released is very high in percentage, which allows for a short time to unconsciousness, approx 15-33 seconds (AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia, pg. 8) and falls into their guidelines of being a humane way to dispatch rodents.

    If you find concrete proof that the CO2 being given off by dry ice falls below the rate or concentration percentage they mention in the article I will concede. Until then, I do not think you can say that using dry ice is inhumane when used properly like directed in this thread.

    My .02 cents.

    You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

    The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

    RecommendationsóCarbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

    It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

    I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

    Tyler

  6. #96
    Registered User JeffJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-13-2009
    Location
    London, Canada
    Posts
    1,039
    Thanks
    74
    Thanked 125 Times in 111 Posts
    Images: 3

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx View Post
    You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

    The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

    Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

    It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

    I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

    Tyler
    no you are dead wrong read it in the correct context before you argue. its stating that CO2 canisters are the RECOMMENDED source of CO2 for euthanasia because i can be regulated for its application (larger or smaller animal of course) It does not say other methods are in humane just that The unconscious period to death period can be prolonged by approximately 30-45 seconds due to an inability to regulate the flow and add more gas as needed. it also states the ineffectiveness of an unregulated method as some larger animals can escape the euthanasia by lifting its head above the heavier CO2 gas. these 2 reasons is why CO2 compressed gas being dispersed by a regulated method is RECOMMENDED

    they dont feel it at all. they are unconscious with dry ice or CO2 compressed gas either way before the perish. the question is the speed of the euthanasia and the effectiveness of the application method for the animal it is euthanising. and in this case its rats, and them methos displayed in the first post 100% is proven human and effective for its application. Euthanasia via CO2 is humane. and so are these applications.
    1.0 Ball Python: Monty
    0.1 Red Tail boa: Dixie
    0.1 Tree Boa: Carmen

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to JeffJ For This Useful Post:

    littleindiangirl (03-20-2009)

  8. #97
    BPnet Veteran littleindiangirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-31-2007
    Location
    Michigan ~ Ahoy!
    Posts
    8,201
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 794 Times in 487 Posts
    Images: 25

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx View Post
    You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

    The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

    Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

    It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

    I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

    Tyler

    Tyler,

    Okay, I understand clearly now you do not want to discuss the meaning of speculation and interpretation in regards to the use of dry ice.

    You can say what you like, however I do feel with good conscience that using CO2 from dry ice is acceptable and also humane when done correctly.

    If you want to continue to argue that I am 100% wrong, please feel free to, I don't guarantee I will consider you competent or worth my time to even discuss it with because of the lack of comprehension you have shown in this thread from the above response.

    I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.

    As such, if you feel the need to dismiss everything I have written here because it is simply not in agreement with you, then I suggest you stay at home where no one can disagree with you. Ever.

  9. #98
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-29-2008
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by littleindiangirl View Post
    Tyler,

    Okay, I understand clearly now you do not want to discuss the meaning of speculation and interpretation in regards to the use of dry ice.

    You can say what you like, however I do feel with good conscience that using CO2 from dry ice is acceptable and also humane when done correctly.

    If you want to continue to argue that I am 100% wrong, please feel free to, I don't guarantee I will consider you competent or worth my time to even discuss it with because of the lack of comprehension you have shown in this thread from the above response.

    I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.

    As such, if you feel the need to dismiss everything I have written here because it is simply not in agreement with you, then I suggest you stay at home where no one can disagree with you. Ever.
    LittleIndianGirl,

    My last point/question then I am going to drop this conversation.....maybe. I only want to know what is it about the fact that the AVMA says "carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as dry ice is unacceptable" makes using dry ice acceptable?

    Tyler

  10. #99
    BPnet Veteran littleindiangirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-31-2007
    Location
    Michigan ~ Ahoy!
    Posts
    8,201
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 794 Times in 487 Posts
    Images: 25

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx View Post
    LittleIndianGirl,

    My last point/question then I am going to drop this conversation.....maybe. I only want to know what is it about the fact that the AVMA says "carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as dry ice is unacceptable" makes using dry ice acceptable?

    Tyler
    Tyler,

    My entire response to yours before the last two was my entire reasoning written out with the points from the AVMA I believe to be the most impressing.

    Simply put, they do not say it is inhumane to use dry ice, rather, they say it is not acceptable because of the lack of being able to control the CO2.

    That is a difference, and I believe if it were viewed as inhumane, they would have clearly written it as so, and I have been trying to point out.

    To read the entire guide, I get a sense of right and wrong; they will clearly outline what is humane and inhumane, however in the mention of dry ice, they did not even delve into the ethics of using dry ice CO2, or if it should not be used because it is potentially inhumane.

    Catch my drift yet?

    As such, coupled with the information they discuss about the uses of CO2, the rates and also the concentration of CO2, I believe it is entirely acceptable and possible to use CO2 from dry ice in a respectable and humane manner.

    To that end, I have asked you if you can find some concrete evidence that clearly shows that using dry ice is clearly not effective enough, or diverges far from the concentrations and air displaced from conventional methods, then I will concede my point. However, the use of dry ice has been shown to be very quick and effective while also being just as humane as using conventional methods.

    edit:
    I do also want to say I admire your passion for ethical treatment of feeders, it can be few and far between.

  11. #100
    Registered User
    Join Date
    06-29-2008
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Re: Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

    Quote Originally Posted by littleindiangirl View Post
    I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.
    I am delighted to hear that you consider yourself "...... one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders......" I consider myself not only to be one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders, I also put my strong and vocal support into action.

    With that said, I am curious why you don't use a CO2 canister? Is it the cost or inconvenience? Or is it that you feel that dry ice is as equally humane as a CO2 canister?

    Tyer

Page 10 of 18 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415161718 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.1