Questions

[lars5277]

To help you identify it you can take a look at the Hunter's Guide to Morphs, specifically the Cinnamon Pastel.

I read that hole page Xdeus listed there. I now have questions. My babies have clear bellies and jet black eyes. I believe all of my babies to be either WC or CH.

I am wondering the difference between blushing and flames. My Salina seems to get more white as she sheds. I know I probably do not have any morphs of any type. Even If i did have a natural morph it would have to be proved. Would anyone have a detailed sheet like that page for normals and stuff? I would like to learn more. I also want to learn more about flames, unicolor faded head (to different extremes), blushing and black eyes.

[lars5277]

I have one more thing. I am wondering about dominant, recessive and co-dominant traits. Please excuse my bad wording.

Recessive trait = something that might not show up for generations. Are there any more categories that fit this?

Dominant trait = Lets say for instance Albino is a Dominant trait. If I breed an Albino male to a normal female I will have a 25-50% chance of getting Albinos? (I don't know if albino is a dominant trait or not, just for example.)

Co-Dominant trait = If I bread a Co-Dominant trait, I might only see half of the trait show up if bread to a normal?

I know my wording here is all wrong, but if anyone understands my garble can they help me out?

Also are the Dominant traits that if bread to a normal you would be guaranteed to throw morphs?

[hornsrule]

check out www.ballpython.ca/genetics.html that might help out a bit.

[lars5277]

Thank you it did a lot, I am going to book mark that page. Now I have a question. Lets use that Spider example on the page. How do I tell the Homos (I am sure Adam will go places with this) from the Spiders?

How do I tell the Hets from the normals like on the Recessive page?


I think the answer is to breed them and see if they prove out. Is that why a lot of snakes are sold as "Possible 50% Het for Albino"? I could buy two snakes labeled like that and NEVER see an Albino?

[RandyRemington]

Backing up a little bit before you understand morph types you should understand genotype.

Genes come in pairs, one from each parent. If the pair of a particular gene is a matched pair it’s the homozygous genotype. If the two copies of a particular gene are different it’s the heterozygous genotype.

A recessive morph or mutation type is a mutation where the heterozygous animals (with one mutant and one normal copy of the gene for that mutation) look normal just like the homozygous normal animals. Only the homozygous mutant (with two copies of the mutant version of the gene – one from each parent) are a visible morph. An example would be albino where the hets are normal looking but the homozygous mutant animals are visible albinos.

A co-dominant (some prefer incomplete dominant and there is a technical difference but I’m not sure which is more correct for the ball python mutations) mutation is one where the heterozygous mutant animals do not look normal. Even one copy of the mutant gene is enough to make a visible mutant. However, with co-dominant, the homozygous mutant genotype produces a visible mutant that looks different than the heterozygous mutant genotype. An example would be Mojave where the hets are Mojave and the homozygous mutants are mostly white snakes.

A completely dominant mutation would be one where even one copy of the mutant gene dominates the normal version and makes the heterozygous genotype just as much the full mutant phenotype (appearance) as the homozygous mutant genotype. If homozygous spiders are indistinguishable from heterozygous spiders except for breeding results then that would be an example of a completely dominant morph.

As far as predicting the outcome of a breeding I believe you should start with the genotype (heterozygous or homozygous) and the basic understanding that each parent randomly gives one of its two copies to each offspring. With that understanding you can see that the only guarantee is with homozygous animals. With those you know what sort of gene they will pass on to each offspring because they only have one version. So even if spider is completely dominant mutation type a heterozygous spider is still rolling the dice as to if each of it’s offspring gets a mutant or a normal version of the gene from it just like with any heterozygous animal regardless of mutation type. All the dominant part tells you is what the heterozygous animals look like in relation to the normals and the homozygous mutants.

So, it’s the genotype heterozygous that tells you each baby has a 50% chance of getting the gene from that parent and the genotype homozygous that tells you that all the offspring will get the gene. The recessive, co-dominant, and completely dominant mutation types just tell you what the hets and homozygous ones look like in relation to each other. Also, those mutation types apply to the mutation and don’t change between heterozygous and a homozygous animal. For example, Mojave is a co-dominant mutation regardless of if you are talking about a heterozygous regular Mojave or a homozygous “super” Mojave. It would be incorrect and mixing descriptions to call the super the “dominant form” of Mojave.

Possible hets are from recessive morph breedings involving heterozygous animal(s) where you could produce both normals and hets but since the mutation is recessive you can’t tell them apart.

If there are homozygous spiders and they look and act just like the heterozygous ones then yes, the breeding results would be how you would identify the first ones. Once you prove a pair you could breed them together and knowing that neither has a normal copy of the spider gene to pass on you would know that all their offspring where homozygous spiders.

[RandyRemington]

And with the pair of possible het albinos, the only way you could produce a homozygous visible (since it's recessive) albino is if both hit their chance and where actual hets. If even one missed you would not even have a (reasonable) chance at producing an albino. Even if they both are hets you would have to hit the 1 in 4 odds that each egg has. I did it with a 66% chance X a 50% chance het albino but it's a gamble for sure.

[ddbjdealer]

Now I have a question. Lets use that Spider example on the page. How do I tell the Homos (I am sure Adam will go places with this) from the Spiders?

*IF* there is a Homozygous Spider, it does not look any different from the Heterozygous Spider (if there is such a thing). The only current way to tell if you have a homozygous spider, would be through a few years of breeding a presumed homozygous male to 5 females a year or so, and if you get all spiders, then whammo... super-spider!

How do I tell the Hets from the normals like on the Recessive page?

You won't be able to. This, of course, is up for debate in certain recessive traits (settle down boys), but there is no RELIABLE way to tell the hets from the normals in recessive breedings.

I think the answer is to breed them and see if they prove out.

Yup, that's the RELIABLE way to prove them out.

Is that why a lot of snakes are sold as "Possible 50% Het for Albino"?

Snakes that are sold as 50% Possible Het Albinos were produced from a 100% Het Albino to a Normal. Half the offspring would be normal, and half would be normal LOOKING but carrying the albino gene.

Snakes sold as 66% Possible hets are from 100% Het to 100% Het breedings. in a 4 egg clutch, you'd get 2 Albinos, 1 Het, and 1 Normal... but you'd have no idea which one was the normal and the het until they were proved out. (in a 4 egg clutch, the percentages are not quite as good as the 66% claims... but that's where the 66%'ers come from.

Snakes sold as 100% Hets must meet these criteria to be considered 100% het (in the RECESSIVE world):

1.) Must be bred from a homozygous animal to a normal
OR
2.) Must be bred from a homozygous animal to a het animal
OR
3.) Must be proven out during a breeding process.

My two pastel females, and tigerlilly's pastel male are both 50% possible het for hypo. That means (following the above), that either the sire or the dam was the pastel, and either the sire or the dam was a 100% Het Hypo.

I could buy two snakes labeled like that and NEVER see an Albino?

Yup. Aint it great! lol The good news is there are a lot of breeders that stand by there genetics and possible hets. Some actually have possible het guarantees. Something like if you buy 5 hets, at least one or two will prove out.... depending on who's offering the guarantee.

Hope this helps.

[rabernet]

Snakes sold as 66% Possible hets are from 100% Het to 100% Het breedings. in a 4 egg clutch, you'd get 2 Albinos, 1 Het, and 1 Normal... but you'd have no idea which one was the normal and the het until they were proved out. (in a 4 egg clutch, the percentages are not quite as good as the 66% claims... but that's where the 66%'ers come from.

Leave it to Robin to split hairs! LOL

Actually in 100% Het to 100% Het breedings, in a 4 egg clutch, you'd get 1 Albino, 2 Het Albinos and 1 Normal. So, out of the three Normal appearing babies, 2 statistically would be Het, or 66% of the three would be Het.

[RandyRemington]

As long as we are splitting hairs ...

The Punnett's square is actually a representation of the odds for each egg, not a guaranteed distribution of the clutch. You aren't guaranteed 1 albino every 4 eggs from het X het any more than you are guaranteed that 2/3 of the normal looking ones will be hets. You might get more or you might get less. With a large sample those ratios would probably come pretty close but with small clutch sizes they might not.

[lars5277]

Thank you for all the good information guys. When I first came here this was all a mystery to me. That page that was listed really helped me out a lot. I work great with numbers, and seeing those actual numbers really helped me understand a lot of the science to this.