Leopard gecko loose substrate questions...

[Lizrd_boy]

Right. hmm. i guess the only other options would be like the bio dude's terra sahara or something like that? If there were any options that I could mix with excavator clay and sand, that would be great, considering I already bought that.

[Lizrd_boy]

Actually wait a sec... Maybe I'm playing devils advocate here, BUUUUT, how do the reptile brands know what people used the land for before they got it? Considering all the chemicals (DDT, etc) that were used in the 60s, and how the reptile keeping hobby relly only kicked off in the 80s, and considering how long these chemicals can stay in the environment, and then the runnoff from other properties onto their soil sites, I guess there's really know way to know anywhere.

Again, I may be wrong, but I think these are valid questions.

[Bogertophis]

Actually wait a sec... Maybe I'm playing devils advocate here, BUUUUT, how do the reptile brands know what people used the land for before they got it? Considering all the chemicals (DDT, etc) that were used in the 60s, and how the reptile keeping hobby relly only kicked off in the 80s, and considering how long these chemicals can stay in the environment, and then the runnoff from other properties onto their soil sites, I guess there's really know way to know anywhere.

Again, I may be wrong, but I think these are valid questions.

I agree, & I would hope they TEST it before deciding it's safe for reptile use & marketing it as such. Why don't you ask them?
(That's what chemists & other scientists are for- )

And by the way, while "organic" is generally a good thing, there's still no guarantee that everything "organic" is safe or good for pets either; just be careful about making assumptions.

[Lizrd_boy]

Alright so I went ahead and called both Zoomed and Zilla. Zoomed is more of the one that deals with soil and and whatever, but i didn't realize that.

So basically, I called them, asked, and she said that she knows that they are heat treated, but that wouldn't necessarily break down most, or any chemicals. She was not aware of any sort of digging done to make sure it's pesticide-free. I asked what part of the world they sourced their soil from, and she said I could send an email to customer support, which would go to her supervisor, and then her supervisor could answer when she gets back on monday (she wasn't there today).

So I called Zilla. The guy who answered started listing a few products and how they know/don't know about pesticides. Crushed walnut shells are from walnut farmers, and Zilla chem checks every few years. Coco husk is from coconut farms, and according to him (I ='m not sure how accurate this is) there aren't any pesticides for coconut trees and nothing else grows there. so idk.

But peat moss was the real kicker-- this guy grew up in the upper peninsula of MI. He said there were peat bogs everywhere up there. The local government, one or twice a year would spread pesticides to kill mosquitos. I'd assume this would be true of a lot of peat bogs all over. At the very least, he said their peat moss was from natural bogs. Bogs are lowlands. That means that when it rains, any chemicals anywhere nearby find their way into the bogs. And I'm sure you are aware how hard it is to remove chemicals once they get in somewhere. Basically impossible.

That said, There still is the fact that around where I live is agricultural (I know-- agriculture? New York? No way! But we live in the sticks ��) and the farmers use whatever the heck they feel like using to keep their crops growing. So maybe it isn't the best idea to get it from around here. The Zilla guy said I should try to find CERTIFIED organic topsoil. They get tested every year by the feds for chemicals. That sounds much better.

And yeah, organic doesn't mean "reptile safe", but it does help get rid of chemicals. The way that Scott's bag did it was really sneaky:

adds ORGANIC material to NATURAL SOIL!

[Malum Argenteum]

"these people have their pets in full bioactives, which is more than I can say, so I figured they must know what there talking about"

It doesn't follow that someone who keeps their leopard gecko in a "full bioactive" enclosure thereby "knows what they're talking about". Simply jumping on a bandwagon doesn't make one knowledgeable. Possibly, quite the opposite.

"And I'm sure you are aware how hard it is to remove chemicals once they get in somewhere. Basically impossible. " Permethrin (likely what's used for spraying as it is cheap and effective and safe-ish) breaks down in a couple months (source) and is very safe for herps (it is the safest mite control option that is truly effective, and is used regularly for that purpose).

"Coco husk is from coconut farms, and according to him (I ='m not sure how accurate this is) there aren't any pesticides for coconut trees and nothing else grows there. so idk. "

Yes, pesticides are used on coconut trees (source). There was a big deal in the news a few years back about a systemic neonicotinoid (dinotefuran) being used on coconuts in the Philippines (source).

Relatively speaking, I'm not overly concerned about pesticide residue in non-food products. I know that oats, wheat and beans are dried at the end of the growing season by spraying them with glyphosate just before harvest (source), and so am not worried about a little possible runoff into peat bogs. A leo will get way more pesticide intake from its feeder insects than from any substrate (since it ingests the insects but not the substrate, and the grain that feeder insects are fed has pesticide residue).

Whether peat or something else would be the better product to add to your substrate mix depends a lot on what you're trying to accomplish with the mix. For collecting waste until you get to spot cleaning it, many things can work. I've been using straight sand (play sand lately, but I might go back to mason's sand since it packs better and has more uniform grain size), and am testing out Jungle mix with a couple of my leos that I'd like to run a little more moist.

If you're trying to get something diggable that holds burrows (people like to do this with leos, I guess, in spite of the fact that they don't really dig burrows in the wild) that's more complicated and I have no good suggestions. I don't like to overly complicate animal care for a few reasons, including that it produces the sorts of problems you've reported here.

[Lizrd_boy]

So I just got back on the other forum, and the people who use this soil answered. One posted a screenshot of the Scott's stuff and said "This is what you need. Many of us have used it with no problems". The other guy said "I've never gotten anything like what you're describing out of a Scott's bag. Yes, there are pieces of mulch/sticks in there which is safe. If you found a bunch of weird stuff in that bag, don't use it for your leo. Either return it to where you got it or use it in your garden."

Not sure why that printed like that, I just copy/pasted it.

The other guy from Texas said he uses this stuff: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Timberline-...Soil/999973086

I can't get that because it's not available here.

"these people have their pets in full bioactives, which is more than I can say, so I figured they must know what there talking about"

It doesn't follow that someone who keeps their leopard gecko in a "full bioactive" enclosure thereby "knows what they're talking about". Simply jumping on a bandwagon doesn't make one knowledgeable. Possibly, quite the opposite.

Right, what I meant by that was that if they were having success, there has to be a reason, right? I mean, I don't know almost anything about bioactives at this point, and the way these people do it obviously works for them.

That's interesting about the spraying, I didn't realize that the halflives were so short. Do they still use dinotefuran for coconut trees?

That actually makes a lot of sense. I never thought about the pesticides/crickets before, but I see where that would be far more concerning than some pesticides in the soil.

[Malum Argenteum]

Do they still use dinotefuran for coconut trees?

No idea. I was only pointing out that the guy whose job it is to sell product is indeed trying to sell product.

[mlededee]

If you are only needing substrate for a couple of enclosures, why don’t you just get products intended for reptile use? Then you don’t have to worry about any of these issues. The Bio Dude, Pangea Reptile, Josh’s Frogs, etc carry bioactive and other substrates.

I understand why people with large collections might look for more economical substrate solutions. But if you are new to bioactive or other natural type substrates I would recommend going with products made for reptiles while you learn about maintaining this type of enclosure and do further research.