Will my python ever recover?

[leosantare]

I had to take her to the vet every (3) days for (1) month for antibiotic injections. She was only there for less than 5 minutes during these visits.

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

In one month from now, I will get her weight and let everyone know. If she still hasn't gained weight or even worse, lost more weight, then I know for sure something is very wrong.

I will continue giving the probiotics, only putting it in the rat's oral cavity, it just won't be all that much. You recommend giving her B vitamins also, which ones should I get? What should I think about the one bloodwork showing inclusion bodies and the following bloodwork not showing inclusion bodies? Should I have more bloodwork to get a better idea? I remember my vet saying that it could be because each python species has a unique blood cell. The pathologist could have been mistaken due to her being a Boelens python.

[mlededee]

Please do not take her to the vet to be weighed. There is no reason in this world to do that. Purchase a human scale and weigh her yourself. You can get one that measures in .1lb increments. Hold her steadily in your arms and take the weight. Then weigh yourself. Subtract the difference of the two weights and that is what she weighs.

These animals are very susceptible to stress. A vet trip is much much more than simply the time spent in the room with the vet. It’s you getting her out and putting her in a transport container (unfamiliar, uncomfortable, unsettling), a car ride to the vet, wait time, getting out of the transport container, exam time, back into the transport container, another car ride, finally home and having to resettle into her enclosure. Not to mention the temperature and environment fluctuations during all of this.

Stress can 100% have a negative effect on the digestion and body condition of a reptile. Give her and yourself a break. She’s been through a lot and now she needs time to recover, stress free.

[bcr229]

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

I don't though by the time my snakes get up to taking feeders that size I prefer to feed rabbits over rats, as the rats that size are old retired breeders so they have a lot of body fat. See if you can find someone local to you who produces meat rabbits, it's cheaper getting them from a local supplier than buying them online.

[Bogertophis]

I had to take her to the vet every (3) days for (1) month for antibiotic injections. She was only there for less than 5 minutes during these visits.

The only focus right now is the new feeding schedule to see if she can start gaining weight. I am going to feed (2) medium rats that equal 5% of her body weight, (about 390g) every 10 days. Does anyone see a problem with this?

In one month from now, I will get her weight and let everyone know. If she still hasn't gained weight or even worse, lost more weight, then I know for sure something is very wrong.

I will continue giving the probiotics, only putting it in the rat's oral cavity, it just won't be all that much. You recommend giving her B vitamins also, which ones should I get? What should I think about the one bloodwork showing inclusion bodies and the following bloodwork not showing inclusion bodies? Should I have more bloodwork to get a better idea? I remember my vet saying that it could be because each python species has a unique blood cell. The pathologist could have been mistaken due to her being a Boelens python.

Please stop obsessing over her weight!- she looks fine & the small amount you've been stressing over truly isn't important. But the stress you're causing her IS or could be a problem.

I see nothing wrong with medium rats, but I wouldn't feed large or jumbo rats, simply because they're older, retired breeder rats, with a high fat content & are less healthy for a snake to consume.

I also would not try to change to rabbits right now- in case for some reason she doesn't like them & doesn't want to eat- why even open that "can of worms"? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Also, a snake's weight will fluctuate according to the amount of food being anywhere along in the digestive tract- and their weight does not truly change significantly in a month's time! It just doesn't. Stop all this nonsense.

Do NOT give B vitamins orally- they're not effective. B vitamins are best injected by a veterinarian, but PLEASE to not rush into yet another appointment to do this. The likely harm (from stress) could outweigh any benefit. Your snake is eating well & getting PLENTY of nutrition from her meals- the only indication for B vitamin injections is a SICK snake, & that you do NOT appear to have. Relax!

I think the one bloodwork showing possible inclusion bodies was probably flawed or misread- as your vet already explained to you. I would NOT get more bloodwork done!!! Your snake appears to be quite healthy. She even has nice iridescence in your photos- that's not a sick snake.

[Caitlin]

I have to say that I wish you wouldn't use vitamin supplements. There is very, very little research on using vitamin supplements in snakes, but there are plenty of clinical reports backed up with research about hypervitaminosis (abnormally high levels of vitamins, which can cause various toxic effects ranging from skin disease to gastrointestinal problems, kidney or liver disease). This includes hypervitaminosis D in snakes that were given supplements rather than provided with a natural vitamin D synthesis pathway through use of UVB light, as well as hypervitaminosis A and E.

Your snake is showing none of the signs of any known vitamin deficiency in snakes. None at all.

If you are going to insist on doing vitamin supplementation anyway, please do NOT do it at every feeding - just lightly dust the prey with supplements 5-6 times per year to allow your snake to process things properly.

Your snake looks absolutely beautiful. The weight loss you report is not clinically significant. She's showing no signs of any nutritional deficiency that would require supplemental probiotics or supplemental vitamins. She may or may not have inclusion bodies, but the important thing here is that even if she does, she is not symptomatic. And that means she has every opportunity to live a good life.

If she were mine, I'd make sure the feeders I give her have themselves been given a high-quality diet. I'd not bother her with any further veterinary visits. I wouldn't be dosing her with supplements of any kind. I'd focus on providing an environmentally complex enclosure, UVB, exercise, enrichment, and opportunities to be in the sun.

I love that you are looking into providing her with more opportunities to exercise and get enrichment opportunities which will increase her quality of life and improve her resilience overall.

All that said, I'm going to bow out of this thread; you are getting a variety of advice from a variety of sources and I don't think it's helpful for me to keep throwing my own perspective into an already-confusing mix. I wish you and your beautiful snake all the best, and hope that you enjoy many happy years ahead with her.

[Malum Argenteum]

All of them. It would not hurt to use some vitamin A, C, D, E, ... , too.

Yes, it absolutely would be expected to hurt. Feeder rodents are widely accepted to have sufficient levels of Vitamin D. "Metabolic bone disease is [...] uncommon to rare in snakes as they usually eat whole food items and absorb adequate dietary levels of calcium and vitamin D3" (source). "...rodents are a completely balanced diet" (Maders' Reptile Medicine, p. 216). More Vitamin D than is sufficient is not better.

Since nearly all supplement dusts use calcium carbonate as an active ingredient or carrier, and since rodents have a perfect ratio of calcium to phosphorus, increasing the level of calcium in the diet would be counterproductive.

By far most importantly, domestic feeder rodents are known to have borderline toxic to toxic levels of Vitamin A (source: Mader's Reptile Medicine, p 206 and feeder analysis chart pp 218-219). Accepted overdose rates of Vitamin A are 16,000 - 24,000 IU/kg of food; small to large rats contain 30,00 - 60,000 IU/kg. Shotgunning Vitamin A in rodent feeding herps is absolutely contraindicated.

Misdosing Vitamin A has a bad history in herpkeeping, BTW. Many turtle species were overdosed on Vitamin A when such practices were in fashion in the 1980s; this lead to a "preformed Vitamin A is toxic" scare that was addressed by using only pre-Vitamin A (carotenoids) in supplements. These supplements still exist, and currently are misused by hobby keepers for species that do not metabolize carotenoids to Vitamin A (with regular fatalities in amphibians, which seem unusually susceptible to hypovitaminosis A).

[mlededee]

Please note, posts recommending supplementation with human vitamins have been removed. This is not something that we recommend keepers to do. Thank you to Caitlin and Malum Argenteum for outlining the reasons for this.

[leosantare]

Update,
I took her to the scheduled vet appointment on 4/9 and it went pretty good. She was 7.9kg which indicated a very small weight gain. This was 10 days after I fed her the 2 large rats. The vet thought her body condition was okay and was not concerned with her feeling squishy in some areas. She was not sure why her activity level was poor. She also told me to hold off with any vitamins and it's up to me if I want to continue the Nutribac.

She also said to say with (1) 275-300g rat every 10 days for now. She is going to reach to her colleague about an optimal rodent size/frequency and let me know. I mentioned feeding an amount that is 5% of the body weight. My vet let me know that an average adult boelens weight is 8.6kg. I let her know that I want her to gain weight and be around 8.5kg. I'm pretty sure that is where she was before any of this started. She thinks her weight may increase in the warmer months without changing her diet. I scheduled a recheck appointment 8 weeks from then.

She finally pooped, a little bit and I dropped off a sample. It came back normal again so that isn't the problem.

She pooped a large amount on 3/18
I fed her the (2) 250-275g rats on 3/31 and that is the last time she ate.
She pooped next a little bit on 4/6
She pooped next a little bit on 4/10
She pooped next a little bit on 4/11

Yesterday, 4/11 I noticed she pooped a little bit and that she was still trying to go. I also noticed her body was swollen by her vent and it felt like there was a rock in there. I soaked her in warm water and tried gently massaging the area to help her go but I didn't have any luck.

I reached out to my vet today and showed a picture of the swollen area. They told me to bring her in asap rather than next week. I bought her in today and they did an xray. They think it's either a messed up egg or poop. They also think this is a life threatening emergency. They thing the redness on her underside is due to sepsis and I think it's because she is going into another shed, her skin is loose around the neck again.

They want me to drop her off first thing tomorrow morning to perform an enema which requires full anesthesia.

They already started her on the following medications,
Ceftiofur
Enclosed
Metronidazole

Today's visit cost me $900! and tomorrow will cost me $1500!

Should I have the enema done tomorrow?
Can this really be caused by feeding her 2 large rats one time?
I thought I felt a small area by her vent about a month ago that felt hard. I'm thinking maybe this started a while ago and not it's gotten much worse.

Can this explain the poor activity level these past few months and with the weight loss?

I first reached out to this forum asking if it's okay to feed again if the snake hasn't defecate and was told it's okay. I never fed her sooner than every 10 days and only fed her the 2 rats the one time.

[leosantare]

Here is the picture,

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

[leosantare]

I forgot to mention, she also ate (1) 275-300g rat on 3/22