Will my python ever recover?

[Bogertophis]

When you mentioned she was diagnosed with stomatitis, all I remember you saying was that there was a little blood in her mouth. That's not enough to diagnose stomatitis- or was there another occasion? As I recall you said your vet assumed the blood was the result of stomatitis (the way bleeding gums indicate gingivitis in humans?). What puzzles me is that you seem determined to assume the most negative explanations, whereas most people that love their pets look for more optimistic answers. I'm all for being "realistic" but, what gives?

You also said she has poor muscle tone, & if that's her enclosure, I can see why. There's not much there for her to grip on- no branches, just slippery furnishings & slippery substrate? You can do much better...IMO. Sources say these are partly arboreal & enjoy climbing trees. But she has nothing??? Inactive creatures of any kind don't keep good muscle tone, & that enclosure sure wouldn't inspire me, if I was a snake.

And her hides sure don't look at all "cozy"- with the huge doors & high ceilings. What are the warmest areas? Is that where she tends to sit? Maybe you need to design her home better, so her "warm area" & "the cooler area" are equally comfortable & appealing. As I previously said, a snake that is "kept" too warm, OR one that chooses for other reasons to be too warm could easily be metabolizing her food too quickly & need to eat more food, or to eat more often. Please consider that. It makes more sense than a "mystery illness" your vet can't find.

If you're just thinking so negatively because for whatever reasons you're tired of keeping this snake, hey, it happens- many others would be PROUD to own this beautiful & uncommon snake. She has a lovely mouth, by the way.

[leosantare]

I believe they diagnosed her with stomatitis due to some inflammation inside her mouth. This was back in October of last year, 5 months ago.

It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses.

I have no reason to suspect something is wrong with any of her conditions. She has been in the same enclosure with the same substrate, furnishings and temps/humidity for the past 5 years. I can look into adding some branches, but she has plenty of floor space to cruise around. I prefer simple and sterile without it taking the entire day to fully clean.

You mention it's possible she is losing weight due to a high metabolism, from being too warm. However, wouldn't she then poop more often? She just went 3 weeks without pooping which is the longest she ever went. She spends the same amount of time on both sides of the enclosure. The hottest spot (on top of the black bin) is 90 and the floor of the enclosure rages from 74-81.

As I mentioned, I'm going back to 250-275g L rats every 10 days. Before I got her, I hassled everone who had boelens about a feeding schedule. I was told not to feed XL rats (over 275g) and to feed every 10-14 days as adults. Since I am feeding 1 rodent per feeding, I am feeding every 10 days.
About 4 months ago, I started feeding her 275-300g XL rats every 10 days. I did this because when I first took her to the vet, they said she was slightly underconditioned. Since then she has sheds 4 times which is a lot! Her neck is still stretched out and she never gained any weight! I'm trying to be optimistic but, until she gains some weight, becomes more active or her body condition improves, I will think something is wrong.

I'm trying not stress out about this anymore. I don't know what else I can do and seems to be out of my hands. A big part of this is not being to able to get another one someday. These animals are way too expensive and way too unavailable. Even if they were only $200 for a baby and everyone had one, they would still be my favorite. Mainly because of their unique size and cool markings. However, I have started looking into some alternative pythons close to the same size.

Based on her current body condition and weight, I would say she was about 8.5kg before all of this started. Do you know how I can make her gain weight without feeding her differently? I feel pretty strongly that she shouldn't be fed much differently.

Thanks again for your help.

[Malum Argenteum]

It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses. \

Both nido and IBD arenavirus can be carried asymptomatically for years, so they cannot be ruled out. And at least for nidovirus, swabs don't always pick it up (I don't know the ins and outs of arenavirus diagnosis). Arenavirus doesn't necessarily cause neuro symptoms, and secondary stomatitis can be associated with nido. This is not to say that either of these should be a concern, but only to say that they aren't ruled out by the reasons mentioned.

I personally would not even blink at the weight variances you listed; 200g in a 8kg animal is less than 3%, less than the weight of a meal. I also agree that the enclosure could use quite a bit of enrichment.

[Bogertophis]

...
It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses..............................

I have no reason to suspect something is wrong with any of her conditions. She has been in the same enclosure with the same substrate, furnishings and temps/humidity for the past 5 years. I can look into adding some branches, but she has plenty of floor space to cruise around. I prefer simple and sterile without it taking the entire day to fully clean..........................

You mention it's possible she is losing weight due to a high metabolism, from being too warm. However, wouldn't she then poop more often? She just went 3 weeks without pooping which is the longest she ever went. She spends the same amount of time on both sides of the enclosure. The hottest spot (on top of the black bin) is 90 and the floor of the enclosure rages from 74-81.

.......................Do you know how I can make her gain weight without feeding her differently? I feel pretty strongly that she shouldn't be fed much differently....

And you've had her for 11 years, right, & no contact with other snakes in all that time -including what could be transmitted from you & your clothing, handling other snakes? So it's very unlikely that she's "picked anything up" then.

I'm not a fan of overly-complex enclosures either- & I'd never do bioactive for any of my snakes, but while I can appreciate where you're coming from, there's still way too little enrichment in her world. You complained that she's very inactive, yet you provide no incentive for her to move around. You complain she has poor muscle tone, but you don't get strong muscles by sitting around- you get them by moving, by climbing, by grasping things, by having traction to move against. If my entire world had nothing but slippery paper for the ground, I wouldn't be moving around much either- after 11 years, one gives up.

It's not asking too much to add branches or other climbing facilities (people make them out of PVC pipes or bamboo poles, for example) and I'd bet she'd love an elaborate "cat tree"- you could rather easily MAKE one too. (Just make sure nothing can tip over- anchor things in place.) Even criminals in prison are encouraged to exercise, you know- because it's essential to both physical & mental health. I feel sorry for your snake, to be honest, because you just refuse to acknowledge her needs.

Metabolism, whether fast or slow, won't cause a snake to defecate more often- snakes go when they NEED to go, in order to conserve water in their body, etc. 3 weeks without going is nothing- at least for a snake.

How to make her gain weight without feeding her differently??? That's just not how it works. (UNLESS she has intestinal parasites, for example- then getting rid of them would ENABLE her to gain weight- but you said her stool has been checked, right?)

You came here seeking help, but you aren't willing to make any changes?

[leosantare]

Yes, she has not been in contact with another python her entire life, nor have I handled another python her entire life. I never been to a reptile event either. However, she did get mites when she was 1 year old. I was able to get rid of them pretty quickly though. With this being said, can IBD and nidovirus be ruled out?

I did make a big branch like structure out of pvc pipe a few years ago. Although, she never used it. I think your missing the point. Her activity level and muscle mass were both fine last year with the same exact furnishings. Again, this all started when I noticed the blood from her mouth back in October of last year. For example, she is just as inactive outside of her enclosure. I take her in my bedroom with plenty of things to climb on but she just wants to find a spot to coil up and rest.

Furthermore, if she is eating larger rodents with less activity, she should be gaining weight not losing weight. I know the rats aren't that much larger and she hasn't lost that much weight, but still. After pulling her out tonight, I know something is very wrong, I really think she is dying.

[Caitlin]

Nidovirus (more likely in a python than IBD) can't entirely be ruled out just because, as pointed out, it can be dormant for years. However, 11 years is a long time and you haven't had contact with other snakes. I would never be so overconfident as to say you can rule it out but I feel pretty confident in saying I think it is unlikely. But that still leaves that grey area of uncertainty.

Should you decide to test, I strongly recommend getting a kit from Fishhead Diagnostics: https://fishheaddiagnostics.myshopif...us-testing-kit

For technical reasons I won't bother with here, they are a very reliable lab for this test and I would use them over and above other options even though they are more expensive. I think it's $75 for the kit plus shipping. Swabbing the snake for the test sample is not hard. If you do test, it'd be best to repeat the test in 3-6 months.

Also, if you test - before you swab her for the sample, stress her a little. Don't terrify her of course, but take her for a car ride or something. If a snake is positive they are far more likely to shed the virus, and thus have the virus be detected, after being stressed.

Personally, my alarm bells about Nido aren't going off with what I'm seeing and hearing about your snake - but there's no doubt that it is a tricky and horrid virus so testing is never a bad idea.

[Bogertophis]

Yes, she has not been in contact with another python her entire life, nor have I handled another python her entire life. I never been to a reptile event either. However, she did get mites when she was 1 year old. I was able to get rid of them pretty quickly though. With this being said, can IBD and nidovirus be ruled out?

I did make a big branch like structure out of pvc pipe a few years ago. Although, she never used it. I think your missing the point. Her activity level and muscle mass were both fine last year with the same exact furnishings. Again, this all started when I noticed the blood from her mouth back in October of last year. For example, she is just as inactive outside of her enclosure. I take her in my bedroom with plenty of things to climb on but she just wants to find a spot to coil up and rest.

Furthermore, if she is eating larger rodents with less activity, she should be gaining weight not losing weight. I know the rats aren't that much larger and she hasn't lost that much weight, but still.
After pulling her out tonight, I know something is very wrong, I really think she is dying.

You say you had no contact with another python, but what about any other kinds of snakes? Others can transmit diseases too, & I wonder how she got mites as a yearling if you & she had no contact with other snakes?

I would think that IBD is very unlikely, since pythons generally succumb very quickly, unlike some other snakes that can carry it without symptoms.

What did you use to treat for mites? (What I'm really getting at are possible chemical exposures that may have caused nerve damage etc.?)

Assuming snakes are at least a tiny bit like humans, waiting until you're way up in years to suddenly try to get in shape (build muscle mass & tone) is all wrong- aging makes one lose quite a bit, especially if no effort is made to counteract the loss. Maybe that's why you're "suddenly" seeing a change that was simply too subtle to notice before.

As for the very minor weight loss- it's probably the difference made by one defecation, or perhaps her digestion isn't what it used to be either.

It's not necessarily just one thing causing the changes you describe- it could be 3 or 4. Anyway, I've brainstormed & speculated all I can- it's really in the hands of your vet, who is actually seeing your snake, & whose training & experience is essential. I've kept many snakes, & for decades- in my experience, snakes that are "dying" just do not have a good appetite.

[Malum Argenteum]

With no other snakes in a collection, it really isn't necessary to rule out nido or IBD arenavirus. Nothing can be done to treat them beyond symptomatic support/treatment anyway (which a person would do with any condition regardless if there's a viral component). Diagnosing either would be merely academic.

Published studies and comments by researchers suggest that there are possibly double-digit percentages of aymptomatic (or only intermittently symptomatic) carriers of either virus in captive animals. At some point the hobby is going to have to come to terms with this fact, and accept that anyone with any substantial number of snakes has carriers in their collection (and anyone with one or a couple snakes has a statistical likelihood).

The way forward in light of this fact is, I think, to ensure good biosafety/disinfection protocols to avoid spread of any undetected pathogens (absolute zero tolerance policy on mites, no cohabitation/unnecessary contact between animals, handwashing/sanitizer between animals, full QT process for all new animals), and provide a level of care that helps avoid a reduction in immune response so as to avoid symptoms/secondary infections.

There's lots of good reading and listening out there for a person who wants to learn more.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/avj.12792
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0229667 (both these suggest that pythons can indeed carry arenavirus asymptomatically long term)

There are many more articles on Google Scholar; those are just the top two hits for 'IBD python asymptomatic'.

A good study on nido: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...019.00338/full

And a podcast that has been linked here before: https://soundcloud.com/theherpetocul...dr-porcher-dvm

[leosantare]

She has never been in contact with any other snakes. I handled some wild rat snakes outside a few times but, I was sure to wash my hands well before getting close to my python.

When she had mites I reached out to others for help since it was my first time dealing with them. I used prevent a mite and some type of insect killer. I would best describe this insect killer as a thin, yellow, square shaped piece of material. I cut a small piece of it and put inside a little cage I made. Then, I put this tiny cage inside her cage and suspended it from the ceiling. I also soaked her daily with a few drops of dawn, cleaned her entire cage daily and vacuumed the room daily. To this day, it was one of the most stressful times of my life. I was very concerned about using the insect killer but that is what finally did the trick. Plus, I was told by multiple people that it was okay as long as I didn't have any arachnids near by. If the insect killer were to harm her, I think it would have happened a long time ago. She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

Since there is no way to treat both nidovirus and IBD, I don't see much sense in testing for it. Especially when he test is inaccurate and in no way will help the python.

I'm going to make another vet appointment for an examination and discussion. If they are unable to convince me they can get her better, I will have her euthanized. This has been going on too long and things are getting worse. I feel like I'm holding a close to dead snake, she has barely moved at all in 3 days. I'm sure she will stop eating soon or start regurgitating. Why let it get to that point?

If I were to test for these viruses, I would have my vet do it. They told me months ago it will require sedation since she has to be swapped about 8" down the mouth. They also told me the test is not 100% accurate. I can also do the CT scan as a last try.

What do you guys/girls think I should have my vet do? Is there anything I should mention/ask my vet when I go? I am definitely 100% taking her to my vet this week.

Thanks for the support,

[Armiyana]

If the quality of life isn't there, you shouldn't let an animal suffer.

Are you sure she isn't being active when you aren't around? I know someone who keeps a motion camera on their snakes so they can watch them later on instead of interacting when they are quiet.

For curiosity sake, and forgive me if it was mentioned and I skimmed over it ...Do you know what caused the mite infestation after you brought her home? As a blood sucking parasite, they can transmit diseases as well. Especially if they had been in contact with a sick snake before interacting with yours.

As much as we can suggest and as many stories we can share, this is an animal you have had for quite some time. There are definitely changes that happen as they age, eating less, poor body tone and so on..You know what has been 'normal' behavior for this animal. Sure, we suggest some possible alternatives to husbandry or improvements based on updated care guidlines...but that's something to change slowly and not all at once to shock them (like adding enrichment items and changes in decor). It can definitely make it tough to understand the behavior changes and such.
But if this is so out of the ordinary and treatment is no longer an option for you, either relinquishing her to someone who wanted to try or euthanasia would be the two options left.
Very much something that you want to speak to the vet in depth about. Sometimes, it helps to ask them "what would you do if she was your pet? Honestly". Because sometimes, yes... There could be an option they didn't mention due to costs... Or they will give the straight answer of there not being a quality of life they are comfortable with.

Also, the worst thing that could happen is the vet declines to euthanize. If they feel that for some reason that animal can turn around and do well with minimal invasiveness? They can absolutely tell you to go somewhere else.