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  1. #21
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    Here are some more pics from tonight. It's looking like I'm going to lose her.

    If there is anything else I can do, please let me know. Otherwise, thanks for all your help.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    Another,

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  3. #23
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    Another,

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  4. #24
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    One more,

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  5. #25
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    Quote Originally Posted by leosantare View Post
    I decided on and told my vet the following,

    Since sedation is required for x-rays, I will do the CT scan instead. Before doing so, I will need some examples of where a CT scan showed something wrong that was fully treatable/curable. Basically, there is no point in having the CT scan if it's only going to show something that is untreatable/incurable.*


    At the minimum, I would also like to repeat the bloodwork and fecal. After this, I think we have done more than enough testing. Unless there are more simple tests that can be done without sedation. Meaning, I'm only going to have her sedated once, if ever. If everything comes back normal, I will just monitor her weight. If she drops below 7.5kg, (she may have already) I will have to assume it's something undetectable and untreatable, like cancer or just old age. I will then have her euthanized. I'm not going to sit here and watch her deteriorate,*she probably is in a lot of pain. Her body condition is now triangular in shape which is not good.
    I've looked at all your photos and there's nothing visibly wrong with your snake's "shape"- she is NOT triangular- not even close!- and she is also not overweight, which is a good thing, as some keepers tend to over-feed. She is a beautiful snake & many would be proud to own her.

    If that was MY snake, I'd skip the CT scan & x-ray & any further vet visits at this time- I can't see ANY reason to do them and good reason not to (avoiding the minimal risk of sedation, & the stress that such appointments have on your snake). The reason to do the scans would be if there is a mass someplace that would require surgical removal, but since you're not even seeing any lumps, or symptoms of illness, your snake is eating, & from where I sit, she looks FINE, why on earth would you insist on more tests? There is no shortage of examples where x-rays or CT scans showed a problem (such as a tumor or GI blockage) that was then resolved by surgical intervention, resulting in a pet that went on to live a good rest of their life. But your snake shows no symptoms of any such issue, so no real need for any scans, IMO.

    Leave well enough alone. I also wouldn't repeat the bloodwork & fecal- listen to your vet! They have expertise that you don't- that's why we pay them, eh? This snake now appears to be healthy, & the tests done have reinforced that. She HAD an elevated blood count, but that was resolved. When a snake is eating (by your account she has a GOOD appetite) you can safely assume she is NOT "in pain" or sick. I've kept many snakes literally for DECADES, & just so you know, I RARELY weigh any of my snakes, & most have lived very long & healthy lives. I don't obsess about MY weight either, & I too am healthy & not overweight, nor underweight. (I gain a couple pounds every winter, & lap-swim them away every summer- I never "diet".)

    If you are so worried about a pet's aging that you'd hasten it's death by euthanizing prematurely, maybe pet-keeping isn't for you? Trust me, we are ALL aging, & there's no point checking out early. Your snake appears to be healthy now- and she is NOT "triangular". For all you know, she could even live to be much older than 15, since animals (including snakes) that are not overweight tend to live LONGER. I've had snakes live to mid-20's. If the "suspense" is too much for you, rather than talk about euthanizing an apparently healthy animal, maybe you should find her another home with an experienced keeper. And by the way, in those latest photos, I'm seeing some iridescence in her scales- that's another sign of a very healthy snake.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 03-22-2023 at 12:31 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  7. #26
    BPnet Senior Member jmcrook's Avatar
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    Yeah, that animal looks more than fine. Could honestly probably take a larger meal and a good bit less frequently. They don't eat every 9 days on the dot in nature. None of my adult boas or pythons are fed more frequently than every 2-3 weeks and are given 2+ months off during the winter.

    Also Boelen's are a cooler climate species living high in the mountains of New Guinea. Hence their dark coloration to enhance effectiveness of shorter and less frequent basking opportunities in cold weather. What are the husbandry conditions for this animal as far as temp, humidity, seasonal changes in temperature? Dated husbandry parameters of "perpetual summer of 90 degree hotspot day and night" could theoretically cause premature aging as was the case in Diamond Pythons prior to greater understanding of their natural history.

    In short, do not euthanize that animal. Calm down and let it be a snake. Do a deeper dive into research on their natural history and current captive husbandry efforts by other keepers working with them. As with any animal, it is an individual and may not conform exactly to what your idea of how it should look and act.

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  9. #27
    BPnet Veteran Caitlin's Avatar
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    I've been thinking a lot about you and your beautiful Boelen's. So much so that I had a conversation with a reptile veterinarian friend (she has boas and pythons) about your situation, and asked her what she'd do if this was her snake.

    My own impressions (just to make clear what her thoughts were versus mine): I believe you when you say something seems off. I'm not convinced at this point that this means the situation is dire, though. The reasons for this include:

    If she feels squishy and is inactive, is she a snake that has been given regular opportunities to get real exercise? If not, this can start to catch up to them just as it catches up to us as humans.

    As a female in the prime of her life, there is some possibility that what you are seeing is related to reproductive cycles, which she may be experiencing in part even though she is not around a male and even though she has no previous history of this.

    I've not seen you describe anything at all that indicates she is experiencing pain. Reptiles do show signs of pain, but a slight change in activity doesn't set off alarms for me, particularly since she is apparently eating well and her fundamental temperament hasn't changed (in other words she is not a defensive snake that is suddenly passive, or a gentle snake that is suddenly defensive).

    Giving her probiotics won't hurt her but I don't think it'll do much either - because your vet is correct that ceftazidime doesn't really disrupt intestinal flora the same way that oral antibiotics do. The probiotics won't do any harm, though.

    As to my veterinarian friend, she saidL

    "There's nothing wrong with advanced diagnostics but in the absence of other signs, which I am not hearing about here, I wouldn't jump to it".

    "Normal bloodwork certainly doesn't rule out cancer but in a snake with a good appetite, insignificant weight loss, and no notable behavioral changes indicating discomfort, I'd wait it out, monitor weight by weighing at the same point in her feeding cycle for a couple of feedings, and if she is steadily losing, then consider the CT scan. If she maintains her current weight, I wouldn't do a scan unless something else changes and would continue monitoring weight and behavior. I'd also feed her less often if he is actually doing regular feedings every 9 days."

    So there's some food for thought, for what it's worth.

    As her keeper, you're the only one who can make these decisions, and I know you are really, really worried. I certainly can't pretend that there is nothing wrong here. We don't know. But I do think that you are being overly-pessimistic at the moment, and convincing yourself that this beauty is dying will not serve her well. Love her, monitor her weight and behavior, and don't give up on her when you haven't been given any reason to do so.
    Last edited by Caitlin; 03-22-2023 at 10:13 PM.
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  11. #28
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    I've only had a few herps long enough to experience anything near their whole life span.

    An iguana that I had for 21+ years, which for the last 3 or so years before he died was looking his age for sure but I never had any reason to believe was in any real discomfort (some cage alternations were necessary to help with mobility), and he just slowed down until he died.

    I have an aging kingsnake (15 years) who started looking old two years ago (body conformation issues like you mention you're seeing) but continues to act normally in all other regards. She looks like she'll live five more years, if I had to guess.

    A pair of Coleonyx geckos that are eight years old (which I assume is really old but have no idea) that stopped reproducing at six and look old, and have slowed down quite a bit, but behave and feed normally.

    All of these animals look much older and more worn out than the snake in your photos (especially females that were breeders -- they seem to get worn out easily twice as soon as males).

    I guess my thought is that just like many other animals (cats and dogs, humans), herps start to look quite old when they have quite a few good years ahead of them. My wife implies that I don't look 25 anymore either...

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  13. #29
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    Re: Will my python ever recover?

    Hey everyone,

    I wanted to wait until today before giving an update. On 3/22 I put some of the probiotics in the rat's oral cavity and she ate just fine. I took her my vet, (who does not see reptiles) today, 3/25 for her weight. Unfortunately, she lost a little bit of weight. I was really hoping for any amount of weight gain this time. I decided to go back to 250-275g rats and already ordered some. I will continue to feed her (1) rat every 10 days with the probiotics. The supervisor of the exotics department, from my reptile vet called me today. We decided to wait for now, if she gets under 7.5kg than we can move forward with the CT scan. The supervisor did confirm that she was originally diagnosed with stomatitis. Unfortunately, stomatitis is usually not a primary disease but, is typically the result of another problem. They can also test for the deadly inclusions and nightO viruses. I hope she is okay like most of you think but, I am convinced something is wrong. Please don't forget this has been going on since October of last year. Therefore, I have been very patient and already tried to wait it out.


    Again, to be clear, I have been concerned because she looks/feels like she is losing mass and has been very inactive. I have had her for 11 years, I didn't just all of a sudden become concerned for no reason. I have taken her to my vet 3 times for her weight,
    1/14/23 = 17.1lbs (4 days after she ate)
    2/13/23 = 17.4lbs (3 days after she ate)
    3/25/23 = 17.2lbs (3 days after she ate)


    Below is her weight history from my vet,
    10/09/22 = 7.9kg
    10/21/22 = 8.0kg
    10/27/22 = 8.0kg
    10/30/22 = 8.0kg
    11/02/22 = 8.0kg
    11/05/22 = 8.1kg
    11/20/22 = 7.7kg
    02/15/23 = 7.8kg

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  15. #30
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    So you complain she is losing weight, but remember that a snake's metabolism (& weight) really depends on how warm they're kept PLUS how much food they're given. Maybe her enclosure temperatures are on the warm side, resulting in faster metabolism? -OR there is insufficient area for her to cool down (thermoregulate effectively), OR that area doesn't meet her needs (for a sense of security, for example) so she prefers being too warm rather than being the optimal (cooler) temperature as needed? THAT could make her lose weight too. IF she is kept on the warm side overall, perhaps she just really NEEDS more food to maintain her weight? Please give that some thought- because to us, she appears quite healthy.

    I wasn't kidding about her iridescent scales either- they suggest she is quite healthy. No offense, but you seem to almost want her to be sick? Have you tried feeding her a little more food, or moving her meals a day or two closer together? All creatures are individuals, you know.

    How long ago was the stomatitis? Just because a pet was sick, doesn't mean it still is. Think how many times we got sick when we were kids- I'm sure glad our parents didn't give up on us & ask the doctor to euthanize us as "lost causes", lol.

    BTW, by "nightO viruses" I think you meant "nidovirus".
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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