Will my python ever recover?

[Malum Argenteum]

I believe I already mentioned when my vet did bloodwork the time before last, it came back with inclusions on the blood cells. However, the pathologist did not mention inclusions with her most recent bloodwork. My vet told me that it could have been a fluke the first time and to just keep an eye on her. Therefore, I don't really know if she has inclusions or not. For those who don't know, the only treatment for inclusions is euthanasia.

It doesn't look like you did. Six days ago you posted that they could test for inclusions (assume that means PCR testing for arenavirus):

"The supervisor did confirm that she was originally diagnosed with stomatitis. Unfortunately, stomatitis is usually not a primary disease but, is typically the result of another problem. They can also test for the deadly inclusions and nightO viruses."

But the next day you mentioned ruling out IBD

"I believe they diagnosed her with stomatitis due to some inflammation inside her mouth. This was back in October of last year, 5 months ago.

It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses."

If a sample came back with inclusion bodies detected in the blood sample, especially in light of the claimed symptoms (and the diagnosed stomatitis, which is the clearest connection), and the vet thought that was a "fluke" I'd get a second independent opinion.

Keep in mind that a snake can test positive for IBD/arenavirus and have symptoms that are not caused by that disease. Many (statistically, most) IBD/arenavirus positive snakes are asymptomatic, and many snakes that are IBD/arenavirus negative can show some weight loss and lethargy caused by many other factors, including age and less than ideal housing (and possibly nutrition as mentioned above, though I myself would start with some B Vitamins).

Euthanasia isn't a treatment; it is an option, though not without a clear diagnosis plus symptoms that support that option. Supportive care is a treatment for IBD (and for idiopathic slow declines).

[Caitlin]

First, I am so sorry about your dog. I lost a beloved Russian Wolfhound to osteoscarcoma and I never regretted opting for euthanasia as soon as I saw that he was dealing with pain.

So here's the thing. Your snake is in a different situation. Honestly, I either totally missed that previous bloodwork showed inclusion bodies or you didn't mention it. It doesn't matter either way; I just know I didn't pick up on that important piece of information. I get it now why you are reacting strongly to everything - you are dealing with stress and loss.

It's significant that your veterinarian found inclusion bodies previously but even if that diagnosis were to be confirmed (and I understand why you are not re-testing), you SHOULD NOT EUTHANIZE UNLESS THE SNAKE DEVELOPS ACTIVE ILLNESS AND POOR QUALITY OF LIFE. Please know that I am not saying you are considering euthanasia for no reason. I am saying that our current understanding of these viruses tells us that euthanasia should not be considered the first and primary option.

I put that in caps because contrary to earlier beliefs, it is now quite clear that even snakes infected with IBD or Nido may not ever become ill and/or if they become ill it may be relatively mild and still allow them overall excellent quality of life. Someone with a big collection of snakes may opt to euthanize just to reduce the risk of the virus spreading, but in the case of someone with one or two pet snakes, then the main question becomes quality of life.

So for now, just love your snake. I'd personally just not worry about trying to give her probiotics unless you can find a stress-free way of giving them. I'm not seeing any clear indication that she needs them, and while giving them will not cause her any harm, it sounds like trying to get them into her is stressful for both of you and the additional stress is definitely not good for her.

I love that you are working on a jungle gym - just take it very slow and easy with her. Any of us who had spent half of our lives being very inactive would have a tough time with increasing our activity level. When I have taken on snakes who were never offered real opportunities to exercise before, it sometimes took weeks or even months for them to realize that they had more behavioral options available and it definitely took time for them to start exploring these.

Hang in there. I know sometimes we may come on strong with opinions or recommendations, but please know that everyone who has been involved in this thread cares very much about you and your snake.

[Bogertophis]

....I myself would start with some B Vitamins)...

So would I- & that's something many vets do for snakes that seem ill or lethargic. (But not dosing them with human multivitamins as previously suggested in a post...I would never do that.)

[leosantare]

Below is what I need help with right now, thank you.

I saw someone mention I'm only feeding 3% of the pythons body weight, what percentage are you suggesting? She is currently about 7.6kg. I asked my vet if (1) 275-300g rodent every 10 days is appropriate for her and she said yes, based on her calculations. However, mabey my vet doesn't know what she it talking about. I'm open to different feeding schedule/rodent size suggestings as long as it won't harm my python. Maybe (2) smaller rats every 9 days? Let's see if it's possible to make her gain any weight in a safe manner. If she were to gain ANY weight it would be a great sign and I would begin to feel hopeful.

[bcr229]

That was me. For an adult python or boa I like to feed around 5% of body weight. Also make sure you're weighing on the same day, like the morning of feeding, or immediately after you clean a pile out of the enclosure, as a healthy bowel movement is going to change the snake's weight.

[leosantare]

Okay, I will try feeding 5% of her body weight for now and see if helps. It definitely will not harm her correct?

Can I have a little more information please, how often do you recommend feeding 5% of the body weight? I assume to feed (2) smaller rats that equal 5% instead on (1) very large rat, correct?

I ended up feeding her (2) large rats last night, which totaled 6-7% of her body weight. That was a bit much for her and I won't do that again. Hopefully, she will be okay. got some medium rats on the way.

She got a lot of probiotics last night. I put a bunch on the rats themselves and inside their oral cavity. Although, the probiotics get very sticky, I think she had a very hard time eating them because it this. She may have even bit herself a little bit in the process. Should I continue giving her the probiotics?

[Bogertophis]

I would only put probiotics IN the oral cavity- much falls off the fur, or changes the taste, or "gets sticky" (if rodents are damp). And personally I'd keep giving them for a while- they shouldn't hurt anything, & might help, so why not? As previously discussed, long antibiotic therapy does a number on a snake's digestion (or ours, for that matter, or most any other animal). The fact that she seems underweight or is losing a bit of weight is a good reason to assume she hasn't been getting all she could have from her meals with better digestion (ie. WITH probiotics).

Since you just over-fed her, you'll probably need to wait a bit longer to feed again- I'd guess a good 2 weeks. You truly don't need an exact feeding schedule- feeding every 10 days is just an approximation, since humans think in terms of schedules & like to keep track. In the wild, remember there is no such thing as a schedule- & some keepers only feed after they see a snake expel waste (that tends to space meals further apart, not what you'd want to be doing right now) or when a snake is visibly hungry (which often ends up being too much food, since just like us, they don't always know when to quit).

Point is, it's not critical as long as your snake is digesting well & not regurgitating. With those large rats, a MUCH better idea would have been to feed only one at a time, & at a slightly reduced interval- maybe 8-9 days- for best digestion. Large rats have thick fur & are much harder to digest.

I'm in the "camp" that never weighs food & very rarely weighs my snakes. But since you do- you don't need a precise feeding schedule- IF a snake is losing weight, feed a little more, or feed a little sooner, or both; IF a snake is gaining weight, slow that down a little. Don't make any huge sudden changes- just watch the results & make small changes based on what you see & what's needed. And remember that both snakes & humans are considered healthier when slightly underweight, as opposed to being overweight. I suspect that's where your vet's recommendation is coming from- vets are used to seeing over-fed pets.

bcr229 has a ton of experience with these large snakes- I'd take their word for it (feeding 5%) ANY day. And no, it can't "hurt anything".

[Bogertophis]

...I'm going to make another vet appointment for an examination and discussion. If they are unable to convince me they can get her better, I will have her euthanized. This has been going on too long and things are getting worse. I feel like I'm holding a close to dead snake, she has barely moved at all in 3 days. I'm sure she will stop eating soon or start regurgitating. Why let it get to that point?

If I were to test for these viruses, I would have my vet do it. They told me months ago it will require sedation since she has to be swapped about 8" down the mouth. They also told me the test is not 100% accurate. I can also do the CT scan as a last try.

What do you guys/girls think I should have my vet do? Is there anything I should mention/ask my vet when I go? I am definitely 100% taking her to my vet this week.

Thanks for the support,

You're really over-thinking this- please do hold off on vet appointments until you have a really good reason to need one -they're stressful for your snake, & obviously you too. Let your snake eat & digest a number of meals in peace- stress is bad for everybody's health- & please keep an open mind about the state of your snake's health. Plenty of snakes will lay around (not moving) for days at a time (especially when they're digesting, OR, in a shed cycle) and it doesn't mean there's ANY thing wrong. I've kept many (!) snakes for decades (not this species) & staying low-key & just "TLC" (good food & good environment) can do wonders for keeping snakes healthy- that's how their immune system functions best.

And by the way, as a life-long "dog companion", I feel your pain & I'm very sorry about your dog's diagnosis- especially for only being 6 years old- that seems so unfair. I'd be a mess too, about that.

[bcr229]

Okay, I will try feeding 5% of her body weight for now and see if helps. It definitely will not harm her correct?

Can I have a little more information please, how often do you recommend feeding 5% of the body weight? I assume to feed (2) smaller rats that equal 5% instead on (1) very large rat, correct?

I ended up feeding her (2) large rats last night, which totaled 6-7% of her body weight. That was a bit much for her and I won't do that again. Hopefully, she will be okay. got some medium rats on the way.

If you look at the guidelines for younger snakes they advise feeding 10% of the snake's body weight but those are for growing youngsters. Feeders at 5% of the snake's body weight every 10-14 days are fine. Feeding a bit more won't hurt either, just extend out the next feeding date a bit.

She got a lot of probiotics last night. I put a bunch on the rats themselves and inside their oral cavity. Although, the probiotics get very sticky, I think she had a very hard time eating them because it this. She may have even bit herself a little bit in the process. Should I continue giving her the probiotics?

You don't necessarily have to put a lot of probiotics on each feeder, though I usually just lightly dust a bit on a damp feeder.

[jmcrook]

please do hold off on vet appointments until you have a really good reason to need one -they're stressful for your snake

+1 on this. According to weight records from your vet and the dates you've provided, this animal has been to the vet at least 11 times since october according to the information you've provided. Including 4 visits in less than 10 days (10/27-11/5). That will greatly stress out any living thing on earth