Will my python ever recover?

[Malum Argenteum]

She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

There's a good chance that those were harmless detrivorous mites. When I was a novice snake keeper, I had that mix up (figured it out before I started treating with anything, thankfully), and many new keepers of all sorts of herps misidentify the many ubiquitous and harmless critters as parasites.

Though this has been said in this thread more than a few times already, nothing about the situation as it has been described here looks like a reason for euthanasia. It looks like a slightly aged snake is slowing down, though a snake that is accepting prey as it is offered is a snake that hasn't slowed down much.

And for context, as a breeder I'm quite quick to euthanize herps I produced if they have malformations (though I have gifted some to someone I know who has a big heart and a lot of free time) or other conditions that would make them an unsuitable captive, or for genetic issues that I worry would be passed along in breeding. But animals that I have any sort of 'pet' attachment to (including some retired breeders) I treat like I would any pet: I see them through their whole lives, including the part at the end so long as they're not obviously in actual and non-negligible physical pain.

[Malum Argenteum]

Reading back through the thread, I see that you are giving probiotics. I think that's good.

Since the contrary was hinted at earlier, and mostly for the benefit of future readers, I'd like to offer a couple sources that show that injected antibiotics including ceftazidime "can have a major ecological impact on the intestinal flora" (van Ogtropp et al, p. 980), and though the studies linked below are on mammals (I couldn't find any studies on reptiles), van Ogtropp's mouse study suggests that non-coprophagic species should be expected to show more disruption of gut flora (also p. 980). Bhalodi et al found gut flora suppression after ceftazimide administration "as expected", so there's apparently little academic dispute on this.

M.L. van Ogtropp et al, Modulation of the intestinal flora of mice by parenteral treatment with broad-spectrum cephalosporins, Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Volume 35, Issue 5 May 1991.

Kemmerich, et al, Multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of ceftazidime and its influence on fecal flora, Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Volume 24, Issue 3 Sep 1983.

Bhalodi, et al, Impact of Antimicrobial therapy on the gut microbiome, Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, Volume 74, Issue Supplement_1, January 2019

[bcr229]

I wouldn't write this snake off or be considering euthanasia just yet. I'm looking at the size of the feeders she's been eating - around 275 grams - compared to her body weight and you're only feeding around 3% of her weight per meal. I think increasing her feeder size or frequency and then re-evaluating is a good idea.

Over the years I've had several snakes pass from various diseases: two from cancer, viral infections or sepsis from an undiagnosed internal infection, bone infection, crypto... and in all the cases except crypto the snake refused food for a while before passing. I'm not saying yours has crypto but as long as she's eating consistently and enthusiastically I wouldn't write her off.

I also have a Brazilian rainbow boa who I believe is nearing the end of his life as he's at least 20 years old and could be as old as 25 (he was a WC import so I have to estimate his age on how long his prior owners had him). He still eats but indifferently, especially this past winter, and I thought I might lose him since he did start to drop weight. With the spring he's started up again and he's put some back on. He's slow and moves carefully so I think there's a touch of arthritis going on as well, but he hunts and is right back to begging on meal days so it looks like he'll be around for a while.

I agree that your snake would benefit from a bit of additional cage decor to encourage vertical exercise. It can still be something easily cleaned - a PVC "jungle gym" comes to mind or even a straight 2-3 inch diameter pipe that could run from one low corner to the opposite side high corner - and it would encourage her to climb, perch, and use her muscles a bit more than having nothing but smooth horizontal surfaces.

[Armiyana]

I should say my post was one of those late night musing when I should really be sleeping type posts. So it was a bit of a ramble of what op can discuss.

I'm also in the camp of not euthanizing this particular animal. Relinquishing the animal may be one of the things op discusses in depth if they are still on the fence. Or asking about a reputable reptile rescue in the area.

Scrolling back through everything, it really does feel like one small speedbump on an older snake. Not something headed down the gutter.
I have a 20 year old BP and I can't hold him to the same standards as my other snakes. All under the age of 7. His body tone doesn't look as nice and he is slower between meals now. he did pick up a small infection that needed to be treated a couple years ago as well. Just run of the mill expectations.
I've also nursed a snake through one of the worst burns I had personally ever seen, had a dog with chronic lung issues and was hospitalized at least once a year and my current dog had her gallbladder removed. Someone needs to care for them too.

I'm getting almost over the hill and full of medical issues but no one has put me down yet. lol. I just found a person who doesn't mind needing to poke me and say, "vitamin time" or drive me to the doctor every now and then. lol

[Bogertophis]

I'm also in the "No way is this snake ready for euthanasia" camp. I would suggest the OP consider relinquishing this snake to the vet or to a reputable reptile rescue- to someone with patience, experience, & especially, a more optimistic attitude. Very few -if any- snakes with a good appetite are truly "at death's door".

[Caitlin]

You are really, really over-reacting when you say you are considering euthanasia for this snake. I'm saying this as someone who, though I am absolutely not a veterinarian, has had far more veterinary experience with reptiles than the vast majority of keepers. I never hesitate to support a keeper's decision to euthanize if it is based on diagnostic testing and/or clear indicators by the animal that their quality of life is poor.

Your snake is showing NONE of these indicators. None. Zero.

I am going to say something here that I genuinely mean out of kindness and care for both you and your snake. You might consider getting a session or two of counseling to explore your response here, as it is so far outside of what is reasonably indicated that it's very possible it is being triggered by other factors that are distressing to you.

Do not consider euthanizing this snake. It would be doing her a terrible disservice.

[Armiyana]

I have had so much experience as a vet tech and out of the hospital with sick animals (all of my non-human kids are problem kids somehow? But I love them)
Any reputable and experienced vet will also refuse to euthanize.

I know I have had to argue that my animal WAS sick and needed care before. I came back from lunch while working vet and the head tech sheepishly told me they DID have to put my dog on oxygen after everyone was commenting how good she looked earlier before a vet check and questioning why I thought she was sick. Sometimes as owners we have that insight. Which is part of my rambling in that other post. There may be something that we're not understanding.... but from our experiences, what we've been told and our lack of having the animal here in person it just sounds like a senior aged animal, not a big issue. It really just sounds like frustrations.

I can't comment about anything like triggers and such, but it definitely sounds like op needs to step back and take a few breaths. It sounds like a lot of circular logic leading to the same stressed decision. Maybe consider a 2nd opinion with another reptile vet. Talk to someone locally with experience with this species. If anxiety or any other type of diversity is there, definitely contemplate is that the reason behind it.

If it really is an issue with not being able to handle an animal of senior age, it may be time to relinquish and stop.
One of the best decisions I had ever seen made at my former hospital was when a client asked for a dog to be put down because she was elderly, had just gotten treated not long ago for a serious illness caused by the dog's separation anxiety/owner's absence on a business trip and the owner was going to be in and out of town for the next few months. We all thought it was sad but agreed the dog would be suffering without the owner and we almost lost her 3x while treating her before. Staff cried. 3 days later, she showed up with a new puppy. We gave the puppy a clean bill of health and told the owner to never come back to our hospital again. Fired her on the spot.
When you reconsider owning an animal because it's older or just not as interesting, that's the sign to Get out for the animal and any future animals sake.

[Bogertophis]

...When you reconsider owning an animal because it's older or just not as interesting, that's the sign to Get out for the animal and any future animals sake.

Speaking of older pets, most of my snakes are in their teens & 20's, except for 2 that are 3 1/2 years old. And I know we're not talking about dogs here, but in mid-January, I adopted a senior dog (estimated age 12) from the shelter (there because her owner had died) to keep me & my other senior dog (age 16) company. A superb decision- she's brought so much laughter & joy! And right before I adopted her, she had to have surgery to remove a mass from her side (a low-grade mast cell tumor), then after she recovered with me from that, she went into 3 weeks of "heat" because she was never spayed! The shelter made a big woops on that one- Of course my other dog is a fixed male (but there was no telling him that, haha!), & once that was over with, then she got spayed- so yet another recovery. Any regrets? Not a chance- I adore this dog, & she's a perfect fit, for as long as I'm drawing breath. The point I'm making is that pets are not toys to be discarded when they're no longer shiny & new- or when they have health issues. And I feel sorry for anyone who no longer enjoys their animals just because they're no longer young or the same as they once were. News flash- we're not the same either.

[jmcrook]

I'll chime in again with a strong and unflinching vote not to euthanize this perfectly healthy animal for multiple reasons. 1. It outwardly appears to be just fine and has a good appetite and has been shown by veterinary professionals to have no medical issues. 2. It is an incredibly rare snake in herpetoculture that does not have an established CBB population within the hobby globally.

To be blunt: More people have walked on the moon than successfully bred boeleni in captivity. Euthanizing a rare, adult, breedable, $10k-15k-20k animal because you are stressed about it losing a couple hundred grams at a weight of nearly 20lbs is absolutely absurd. Please relinquish this animal to a reputable keeper working with Boelen's if you are so insistent on having it medically extinguished. End of story. Period.

[leosantare]

I believe I already mentioned when my vet did bloodwork the time before last, it came back with inclusions on the blood cells. However, the pathologist did not mention inclusions with her most recent bloodwork. My vet told me that it could have been a fluke the first time and to just keep an eye on her. Therefore, I don't really know if she has inclusions or not. For those who don't know, the only treatment for inclusions is euthanasia. Therefore, I do have a reason to be considering it especially when she continues to look/behave worse and worse these past 5 months. Her spine is really becoming prominent now with very little activity. Obviously, I would not euthanize my python for no reason and don't appreciate anyone who is suggesting that.

Now with out of the way, I tried to give her some probiotics mixed with water last night. I used a small syringe but it didn't go that well. I couldn't get her mouth open enough and most of it went down the side of her mouth. I'm going to try putting a bunch of the probiotics on the rat itself next time I attempt to feed. Reason being, I can't put all that much in the rat's oral cavity. If she could just gain ANY amount of weight it would be a great sign and I would begin to feel hopeful. Although, that seems unlikely since she continues to lose weight when the rodent size was increased. Currently, she is at her lowest weight and has lost at least 2lbs.

Even though she was doing just fine 5 months ago with (1) 250-275g rat every 10 days, I am willing to try something different. Even though I was told by professionals who had a lot of experience with boeleni to never feed more than (1) rodent per feed, never anything larger than 275g and never sooner than 10 days as adults, I'm willing to try something different. I mentioned earlier, I started feeding (1) 275-300g rats every 10 days and that was months ago. Although, that has not helped any, it's only made her skin loose around the neck and have a lot of sheds. I asked my vet if (1) 275-300g rat every 10 days is appropriate for her and she said yes, based on her calculations.

I saw someone mention I'm only feeding 3% of pythons body weight, what percentage are you suggesting? She is currently about 7.6kg. Are you sure this percentage is a rule of thumb for all pythons? I asked my vet if there was a rule of thumb like this way before you had mentioned it and she said no, it can't be applied across the board. However, maybe my vet doesn't know what she is talking about. I'm open to different feeding schedule/rodent size suggestings as long as you know it won't make things worse. Maybe (2) smaller rats every 9 days? Let's see if it's possible to make her gain any weight in a safe manner.

In the meantime, I'm going to order some medium rats and start working on a pvc jungle jym. I take her back to the vet on April 9th. Thank you to everyone who has been supportive, I am very grateful. Hopefully with your help, I can get my python back to good health.

Also, I just recently found out that my 6 year old dog has osteosarcoma. I decided not to amputate her limb since it would only extend her life a few months. Instead, I will have to euthanize her soon. The pain will become excruciating even with multiple pain medications. I have been such a mess and can't keep it together.