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  1. #31
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Rescue situation, newer keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianHunter View Post
    I had a theory on this: I don’t know that this guy used a thermostat and Sunny has wobble
    of the corkscrew variety. (He had since he was bought from the breeder 5 years ago). I wondered if just maybe he pretzeled himself kind of upside down on the heat pad and burned himself.

    but… it doesn’t explain the random brown dead looking scale here or there either.
    Just to be clear, excessive heat (from not using a t-stat) can cause not only burns to the skin, but even neurological damage (including wobbles). Not saying that's what happened- & you'll never know for sure- with a rescue, all you can do is go forward, & do what you can for the snake. I've personally taken in rescues from inexperienced keepers who honestly never understood much less admitted what they did wrong. It hardly matters- it's your snake now to make the best of.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  3. #32
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    Re: Rescue situation, newer keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    You're getting good advice, so I don't want to overwhelm you with another voice. I did want to chime in on a couple of significant points, though. For what it's worth I was raised in a family of veterinarians and worked my way through undergrad and grad school as a vet tech in exotics and laboratory settings.

    The scale loss you are seeing is most likely due to the fact that this snake had a severe infestation of mites (based on your observations). This could also account for the brown patches and raised/rough scales, though these may also be signs of scale rot. I'd be a little surprised to see scale rot, just because this snake was not well-hydrated. Snakes dealing with mite infestations or injuries to their skin will expend a lot of energy to self-correct these problems via frequent sheds and even dropping damaged scales. This is part of the healing process.

    I really want to stress that what you are seeing so far is not congruent with the 'slipped skin disease' caused by chronic vitamin deficiency. Believe me, you'd know if this snake had that and it'd be horrible. Be glad you aren't dealing with it. In the meantime, please don't give vitamin supplements, as this can create more problems than it causes for a snake that doesn't actually need them. When you do offer food, just be sure it's whole rodents or chicks that have been themselves fed high-quality food.

    Try not to fret too much about a few scales dropping off. It's true that anything oil-based, including antibiotic ointments, can cause scale damage - but this is typically only seen after frequent use over a long-ish span of time. This snake's body is trying to self-correct after dehydration and mites, so I would expect to see scale loss and even frequent sheds for awhile. Good basic husbandry is going to resolve most of the issues you are experiencing.

    Snakes with wobble respond very well to some pretty simple adjustments in husbandry that can decrease or eliminate wobble episodes, but right now the priority is stabilizing and treatment. If you are interested later, though, I am glad to discuss details of wobble husbandry with you.

    Thank you for this. We have only been keeping reptiles, ball pythons specifically, since September of 2022 when my son came home from repticon with his personal BP. So, we have learned a lot in a short time, but haven’t had to go down this road yet. The new fellow we acquired had a little more going on than I expected, and found out minutes before he was being dropped off. The two little scales dropping off and exposing the next white layer concerned be a good bit. I’d love to hear your thoughts on diminishing his wobble symptoms, especially since his is pretty bad and hard to watch. Please feel free to private message me.

    To all, I value everything you’ve all suggested and advised I look into. Thank you for the time you’ve all spent responding to my questions and your instruction. I will update the thread as we continue through the journey for everyone interested.

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  5. #33
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    Some ground zero references. Maybe someone in the future can benefit from this thread and the outcomes. Thought they may help. He’s about 5, and weighs 475 grams.










    Last edited by GuardianHunter; 03-20-2023 at 09:54 PM.

  6. #34
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    Re: slipped skin

    Definitely not what I think is going on with this snake. I actually went back to the original image to double check that when you mentioned the scales coming off... The scales are much too large and normally placed. At least from my experiences with it....but I mostly saw it in very young snakes.

    The snakes I had seen with chronic malnutrition all have the same look to them, skinny, super dehydrated appearance and heavy wrinkling around the neck where the looser folds are. The scales will be much smaller in comparison to a healthy snake and the spaces between the scales are very noticeable. I don't see this in the photos you presented.
    The skin will sometimes crisp up and look like someone dribbled super glue on it before it will crack and expose the skin underneath. It's never just one or two scales, it will be a large gash. Handling the snake can make it worse as the pressure on the skin can cause cracks and seepage of fluid elsewhere that dries into that super glue look. Sometimes before the cracks you might see little bubbles here and there under the skin before it cracks. The skin feels like rough single ply tissue paper.

    One or two scales falling off and exposing white skin definitely sounds more like a healing burn or the excessive mites. The area under one scale being damaged enough and not the whole area like you would see in a systemic example like slipped skin from malnutrition

    Hope that helps as well!

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  8. #35
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    What did you mean by Ground Zero photos? Just the name for his current habitat and the mite extermination zone? Lol

    Are these photos more recent than the original post? I only ask cause he looks a bit more dehydrated and I feel like I'm seeing more red around his scales... If he's about to shed than that's probably why though.

    If not... I would definitely be worried about septicemia and crossing my fingers the vet can see him soon.

    Another possibility for the injury as well... I don't know why we all didn't think of it sooner... Maybe the mite concern made it slip my mind. It could be a gnarly rodent bite that had abscessed/healed over badly as well. Usually snakes develop more like a thick cyst material in an infection, but if it was too large of a rodent and some deeper wounds that can be why it looks a bit more burn like. So that could be why if the previous owner had been feeding live

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  10. #36
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    Re: Rescue situation, newer keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by Armiyana View Post
    What did you mean by Ground Zero photos? Just the name for his current habitat and the mite extermination zone? Lol

    Are these photos more recent than the original post? I only ask cause he looks a bit more dehydrated and I feel like I'm seeing more red around his scales... If he's about to shed than that's probably why though.

    If not... I would definitely be worried about septicemia and crossing my fingers the vet can see him soon.

    Another possibility for the injury as well... I don't know why we all didn't think of it sooner... Maybe the mite concern made it slip my mind. It could be a gnarly rodent bite that had abscessed/healed over badly as well. Usually snakes develop more like a thick cyst material in an infection, but if it was too large of a rodent and some deeper wounds that can be why it looks a bit more burn like. So that could be why if the previous owner had been feeding live

    Ground zero—just from the bottom of his journey heading upward. But I would be good calling his little
    enclosure that haha.

    Re more dehydrated: honestly I think how I had him stretched out in the beginning photos helped disguise a little bit of his wrinkles. When I picked him up when he first arrived, he was so dry he crackled and his scales got stuck on my shirt.

    re red: I did give him a betadine bath today. I wonder if that stained him? I’m not noticing any more red areas than he had to start with though. And I’ve been really watching this fellow close.

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  12. #37
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    It could be the betadine! It should be like a light tea color for ideal soak use, you can use a slightly more concentrated dab with a cotton ball for the wound areas.

    I'm really glad he's in such good hands now. ♥
    Keep up the good work!

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  14. #38
    BPnet Veteran Caitlin's Avatar
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    For what it's worth I am not seeing anything that triggers immediate concern in those photos - but of course a lot can be missed in photos. His body condition doesn't look bad at all, though he definitely has that 'crinkly' look of a snake that needs better hydration. Re: his wobble - hopefully husbandry adjustments can help significantly decrease wobble episodes over time. For now I am not surprised you are seeing it, as stress is a key factor there.

    I'll just post a list here of the husbandry adjustments that can be made for snakes with wobble in case anyone else would find the info helpful. I developed it as a guide for another group and had it reviewed by reptile veterinarians working in rescue facilities with Royal and Jaguar Jungle Carpet pythons with severe wobble.

    Minimize sources of possible stress: set the enclosure up in a room that isn't exposed to constant family activity, loud television or music, bright lights, or high levels of direct sunlight.

    Be very sensitive to your snake's body language and behavior when handling - as soon as you notice any signs of stress or indications that the snake wants to move away from you, hide, or has just had enough, then return them to their enclosure.


    Handling is fine, but it's best in general to keep excitement minimal by avoiding 'outings' to unfamiliar places, limiting handling to brief periods of time if your snake shows any signs of stress, and keeping outdoor excursions to enjoy grass, etc. pretty short (10-15 minutes or so). Try to minimize fast movements or chaos around them (such as rambunctious little kids). A quiet room and slow movements helps.


    Don't ever let your snake overheat. Be cautious about enclosure placement near windows; the 'greenhouse effect' of sunlight streaming through glass can significantly increase temps in the enclosure.


    There is research indicating that snakes with wobble may do better when kept at slightly cooler temperatures. Do NOT chill your snake, but if they have a visible wobble, it may help to drop the temperature gradient in their enclosure by a couple of degrees (as in 2-3 degrees, not a 10-degree drop).


    Provide sturdy enclosure furnishings - heavy, low branches and/or a rock or two, a water bowl that can't easily be pushed around, etc. This will give your snake something to brace against if they are wobbling and disoriented.

    Related to the previous tip about sturdy enclosure furnishings: when you clean the enclosure, put furnishings back in the same spots so that your snake can always rely on their locations.

    Snakes with wobble may show the behavior when they try to process visual information on the vertical plane - in other words, they can have an episode if there is motion above them or they try to focus on objects high above them. Some snakes with wobble have episodes when they perceive even slight movement above their heads. Avoid keeping them in tall enclosures, and/or provide things like networks of branches or vines overhead to cut down on overhead visual stimulation.


    Keepers often observe a first wobble episode during feeding, because snakes become excited at feeding time. Wobble may cause them to strike and miss. In general, feeding frozen/thawed is best for them, as this will decrease the frustration or stress of missed strikes with a live feeder. If feeding frozen/thawed, don't dangle the rodent by the tail in front of the snake, and don't jiggle it. Use your tongs to hold the rodent by the back and present it in more of a natural posture or simply hold it at ground level in front of the snake. This gives your snake better opportunities for a successful strike.


    Wobble is often associated with weakened/less developed musculature around the snake's head and neck. Help your wobbly snake develop strength and coordination by providing opportunities for safe exercise - low climbing options within the enclosure, and safe climbing and exploring options outside of the enclosure.


    Even snakes with significant wobble will benefit from opportunities to exercise and explore. Instead of branches that require them to grip and balance, you can offer them basking shelves and ramps. Black Box Cages, which makes PVC enclosures, also makes basking shelves that you can add to an enclosure. Shelves and ramps can easily be made at home from PVC, and ladders made for birds can also be used if they are secured.


    If there are climbing options in the enclosure, be sure there's a good thick layer of sphagnum moss or soft substrate beneath in the event of a fall.


    Your wobbly snake is just as intelligent and curious as any other snake, so don't deprive them of enclosures with plenty of ground space, enrichment and even climbing opportunities in your efforts to protect them!


    Every snake is different, so learn your snake's typical behavior and response patterns. They may thrive in a larger enclosure, or you may need to downsize enclosure size or height to reduce stress.


    If you are able to provide a PVC enclosure, this is likely an ideal choice because of the options for lower height, ease of maintaining appropriate temperatures, low reflection of light, and the fact that all sides but the front are enclosed, thus keeping potential visual stressors minimal.


    Your wobbly snake's needs (enclosure type or size, enrichment type or frequency, feeding strategy, etc.) may change over time, so monitor them and be prepared to make changes as needed.
    1.0 Jungle Carpet Python 'Ziggy'
    1.0 Bredl's Python 'Calcifer'
    0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa 'Mara'
    1.1 Tarahumara Mountain Boas 'Paco' and 'Frida'
    2.0 Dumeril's Boas 'Gyre' and 'Titan'
    1.0 Stimson's Python 'Jake'
    1.1 Children's Pythons 'Miso' and 'Ozzy'
    1.0 Anthill Python 'Cricket'
    1.0 Plains Hognose 'Peanut'
    1.1 Rough-scaled Sand Boas 'Rassi' and 'Kala'
    1.0 Ball Python (BEL) 'Sugar'
    1.0 Gray-banded Kingsnake 'Nacho'
    1.0 Green Tree Python (Aru) 'Jade'

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  16. #39
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    Re: Rescue situation, newer keeper

    Thank you, all, to the 1000th power. We will digest all this, get him to the vet asap, and do our very best to do right by this animal.

    I don’t think I can afford a PVC enclosure at this time, but I do think I can modify an appropriate locking bin to give him constant humidity requirements. I can figure out how to block up
    3 sides.

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  18. #40
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    Re: Rescue situation, newer keeper

    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianHunter View Post
    Thank you, all, to the 1000th power. We will digest all this, get him to the vet asap, and do our very best to do right by this animal.

    I don’t think I can afford a PVC enclosure at this time, but I do think I can modify an appropriate locking bin to give him constant humidity requirements. I can figure out how to block up
    3 sides.
    Black posterboard from a dollar store taped to the outside walls works well for blocking out sides.

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