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  1. #1
    Registered User OatBoii's Avatar
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    Local "Pet Store" Conditions - Should I be concerned?

    Hi everyone. I'm not sure where to put this, but I think here?

    I went out today to visit a new pet store in my area, only open for about a month and a half, maybe 2 months? It states on their FB page that they are my area's "only exotic pet store/zoo", and they resell reptile supplies, so I wanted to stop by and see what they had for decor and feeders. Their FB also mentioned having PVC cages, so I thought, "Hey, if they're good quality and I can pick them up in person, cool!".

    To be clear, I've never been to a concrete exotics store before, so maybe this is all industry practice, but I want to double check.

    First, the good. It seems like the place is trying to set up an area for reptile outreach/parties, and they had indented spaces in the wall (not finished) that look like the kind of thing I've seen being converted into zoo-like enclosures. They havent been open long, so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they're working on it. The few complete enclosures I saw looked pretty good, with a massive nearly room size area in the back where they had turtles and ducks, and a massive pallet size plastic tank that had a snapping turtle in it. They also had a... cockatoo? In a very large cage, easily like 8'x8'x8' if not more. I dont know birds, really.

    Now for the bad. I was... pretty put off by what I saw. They had a good variety of feeders, but the first thing I noticed when I came in is that the whole place smelled pretty bad. They easily had over 200 reptiles, mostly snakes and geckos, and the snakes really put me off. There were rows and rows of plain tanks, with like an inch of reptibark, a single water bowl, and literally nothing else. I saw everything from baby BPs to adult snakes and even good sized Boas, definitely yearling or more, in these totally plain 10-20 gallon tanks under bright lighting. I saw multiple who had shed stuck all over them, and I wouldnt be surprised even a little if there were mites, as several snakes were sitting in their water bowls (if they could even fit). Even the bigger snakes and some monitors were in totally bare cages, and the monitors (black rough necks?) Never stopped running back and forth and rubbing their noses on the glass the whole time I was there. They had a good sized sunglow, probably at least 2 or 3 years old, which had stuck shed patches all over its body, including its head, and it was in a decent sized maybe pvc, but there was no lighting in it and nothing but reptibark and a single bowl. It was nearly stargazing, just sitting dead still with the first foot or so if its body held straight up in the air. Conditions for some crested geckos looked better. They had some decor to hide behind, at least. A few of the lizards also had better conditions, but even they mostly had totally bare cages. There were also cockatiels in bird cages, but I dont know anything about cockatiels, so I wont comment on those.

    As far as the resell items I came in looking for, they had a wire shelf at the back which had just about anything you could think of shoved on it, but none of it was clean, and some even still had visible poop on them. There were huge tubs of leaves and vine decor, and piles of hides, water bowls, reptile mats, beardie nets, wood, etc., all just kinda shoved into this space wherever they would fit. The PVC cages were the weirdest I've ever seen, they looked nothing like I've seen before. There were no holes or vents on them, and there was a 2-3"(?) Rim around the front on all sides. It looked sort of like a substrate guard, except it went up the sides as well. Nothing necessarily wrong there, but I don't have the tools to drill holes or cut out vents in PVC, so I decided to pass. I also was so put off by the smell and subpar conditions of the snakes that I just decided to leave.

    I know they're still setting up, but I really just got a bad vibe from this place. Maybe it's just me though- is this standard, to keep all kinds of snakes in totally plain tanks? None were cohabbed, like sometimes chain pet stores do, but I feel like at least the cohabbed snakes in chain pet stores I've seen had hides and enrichment. The vast majority of the snakes were BPs, and I have never seen so many snakes just... looking stressed out and uncomfortable. Even some big ones that were balled up still took up half the tank with their body, easy. Only about 10 of the larger reptiles had appropriately sized enclosures.

    I dont know, I just feel really uncomfortable about the conditions that store was keeping the animals in, and for sure I won't be going back. The whole place just felt dirty and messy. But is this level of care (or lack thereof) something to be concerned about? And if it is serious, what could I even do about it?

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  3. #2
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Local "Pet Store" Conditions - Should I be concerned?

    Quote Originally Posted by OatBoii View Post
    ...
    First, the good. It seems like the place is trying to set up an area for reptile outreach/parties...
    Sounds like a perfect place for super-spreading mites & lethal reptile diseases. No, that's not what the better reptile stores are like.

    As for what you can do- it depends on where you are & your local laws. In many places, "animal control" knows little beyond dogs & cats, but that's not true of all- so try asking.

    You might try asking for the manager to voice your concerns. Never know until you try, but it sounds like they either don't know what they're doing, or they don't care. I hope it's the former.
    You might also look closely enough to see if you see mites on their animals- & let them know if you do.

    Reselling cages & equipment that's dirty, in a store that reeks...is disturbing. So your answer is yes- you SHOULD be concerned.

    And above all, shower & change your clothes when you come home from such a place before you get near your own animals. Keep your clothes in the garage until you can wash them, in case any mites hitched a ride home with you.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #3
    Registered User OatBoii's Avatar
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    Oh gosh, I didnt even think of showering! Thank you- I'll be sure to do that, and separate my clothes as well. Thankfully, I'm still out right now, but I wont be for long. Hopefully nothing bad did hitch a ride... otherwise it will have gotten a ride to a lot of different places, Wednesdays are errand day.

    Thank you again! I'll look into what I can do/who I can talk to. Glad my gut feeling was right, at least.

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  7. #4
    BPnet Veteran Homebody's Avatar
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    Re: Local "Pet Store" Conditions - Should I be concerned?

    Not entirely on topic, but having seen so many animals poorly cared for in pet shops, I've often wondered what I would do if I had a pet shop. The conclusion I came to was that I would focus on selling enclosures, decor and feeders. I imagine live animals are laborious and expensive to maintain, and they age like produce. If you don't sell them quick, you're not selling them at all.
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  9. #5
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    Re: Local "Pet Store" Conditions - Should I be concerned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Homebody View Post
    Not entirely on topic, but having seen so many animals poorly cared for in pet shops, I've often wondered what I would do if I had a pet shop. The conclusion I came to was that I would focus on selling enclosures, decor and feeders. I imagine live animals are laborious and expensive to maintain, and they age like produce. If you don't sell them quick, you're not selling them at all.
    I agree- maybe the best way to promote (& sell) pets is to have a few of your own adult pets on display (maybe on a rotational basis), so people can see what the goal is- then if they really are serious, have contacts to help them order the animal they choose. Except many people can & will find their own online (MM etc) without your involvement. Unfortunately, too many pet stores still rely on buying inexpensive animals (captive-bred surplus from less-stellar sources along with wild caught animals) to mark-up for retail- the "buy low, sell high" notion, making bad experiences for both animals & buyers a near-certainty.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  11. #6
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    I haven't been in one in years, but just from hearing from accounts like the above OP it seems like a lot of privately owned reptile shops are run in deplorable conditions like this. Not that big box stores are any better, the only real difference is that most of the time the horrors are hidden behind closed doors (as countless PetSmart/Petco/ect. employees can attest to, and that's even before getting into where most if not all of the animals come from...).

    Basically it seems like the only way to avoid dealing with such practices is to find a reputable private breeder because, yeah... The dark underbelly of the hobby is a great big nasty one.

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  13. #7
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that it would be unreasonable in a couple ways to house 'for sale' herps in long-term style housing. Beyond the added expense (in a market where there are hundreds of identical animals to choose from, asking price is a big factor to many buyers), customers want to be able to see the animals; if they're all hiding, customers (somewhat unreasonably) get upset. That's of course not to say that enclosures can't be both spartan and provide for all basic needs. The multiple stuck sheds indicate that basic needs are not being met, but keeping humidity up and providing a hide that customers can sort of see into isn't difficult. At any rate, it is important to keep in mind what's important for short term holding (basic security, basic psychological needs, temps and moisture) and what isn't (overly large visually interesting "zoo grade" enclosures).

    "As far as the resell items I came in looking for, they had a wire shelf at the back which had just about anything you could think of shoved on it, but none of it was clean, and some even still had visible poop on them." That, IMO, is a 100% deal breaker. If they don't clean used equipment before sale, they are not likely QTing animals, nor disinfecting enclosures between animals. I would not buy anything at all from such a shop. Not even used equipment, as the cost and hassle of effectively disinfecting such items (against all possible pathogens, including crypto which is a bear to kill) would likely exceed the savings of used.

    I don't go to chain pet stores, and am surprised to learn that they cohab snakes. Is that different species, or just multiple members of a clutch? The latter isn't necessarily terrible, but the former is a complete no go.

    I agree that buying animals directly from a quality breeder is virtually always the best option. Many breeders, of course, keep their animals in very minimal housing, too, although that housing is much more likely to meet all the basic needs of the animal. There are many other reasons beyond animal welfare to buy directly from breeders -- they can provide better care info, and also deserve more of the profit from the animals they produce, and doing so breaks the 'industrial animal production' chain that promotes profit motive decision making throughout the process of getting an animal to their final owner.

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  15. #8
    Registered User Animallover3541's Avatar
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    Re: Local "Pet Store" Conditions - Should I be concerned?

    Quote Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum View Post
    Keep in mind that it would be unreasonable in a couple ways to house 'for sale' herps in long-term style housing. Beyond the added expense (in a market where there are hundreds of identical animals to choose from, asking price is a big factor to many buyers), customers want to be able to see the animals; if they're all hiding, customers (somewhat unreasonably) get upset. That's of course not to say that enclosures can't be both spartan and provide for all basic needs. The multiple stuck sheds indicate that basic needs are not being met, but keeping humidity up and providing a hide that customers can sort of see into isn't difficult. At any rate, it is important to keep in mind what's important for short term holding (basic security, basic psychological needs, temps and moisture) and what isn't (overly large visually interesting "zoo grade" enclosures).

    "As far as the resell items I came in looking for, they had a wire shelf at the back which had just about anything you could think of shoved on it, but none of it was clean, and some even still had visible poop on them." That, IMO, is a 100% deal breaker. If they don't clean used equipment before sale, they are not likely QTing animals, nor disinfecting enclosures between animals. I would not buy anything at all from such a shop. Not even used equipment, as the cost and hassle of effectively disinfecting such items (against all possible pathogens, including crypto which is a bear to kill) would likely exceed the savings of used.

    I don't go to chain pet stores, and am surprised to learn that they cohab snakes. Is that different species, or just multiple members of a clutch? The latter isn't necessarily terrible, but the former is a complete no go.

    I agree that buying animals directly from a quality breeder is virtually always the best option. Many breeders, of course, keep their animals in very minimal housing, too, although that housing is much more likely to meet all the basic needs of the animal. There are many other reasons beyond animal welfare to buy directly from breeders -- they can provide better care info, and also deserve more of the profit from the animals they produce, and doing so breaks the 'industrial animal production' chain that promotes profit motive decision making throughout the process of getting an animal to their final owner.

    The clinic I shadow at regularly sees chain petstore animals, and while the snake cohabbing is not ideal they are very young and usually have no issues arising from that (although other conditions do result in them often being sick anyways). However, I have seen gangrene develop on the limbs and tails of young bearded dragons who are cohabbed in petstores because they get confused and nip at each other thinking they are food.

    Personally, I have also stopped buying animals at expos because I find it extremely difficult to find breeders which meet my standards of care and animal health and wellbeing. For example, I didn't know any better then but when I got my ball python the snake bag I was given was covered in feces and urine and smelled horrible. I don't even think it was the snake bag the breeder brought him to the show in, it was just some random urine soaked smelly bag. With how over saturated the ball python market is, I feel many hobby breeders are starting to breed more animals than they know what to do with, and artificially raising prices. I don't have a problem with breeding animals as a hobby, but too many breeders at the shows I attend just rub me the wrong way (ex. not making attendees use hand sanitizer before handling, stuffing multiple young snakes into the same compartment in a show display, ignoring signs of illness). The risk of disease spread is also too much for me to risk, and in regards to used equipment no amount of virkon or chlorhexidine can get rid of everything. I am very careful buying used supplies and only buy things I know I can adequately disinfect or something that will not be used inside enclosures like thermostats.

    I am concerned that all of this is going to lead to many looking down on the hobby. Hopefully things will get better, but only time will tell.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 03-09-2023 at 01:45 PM. Reason: fixed typo for clarity (limps > limbs)
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  17. #9
    BPnet Veteran Caitlin's Avatar
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    You've already gotten good feedback here so I won't repeat anything other than the advice about if you do go back, please immediately toss your clothes into a plastic bag as soon as you step into your home (I mean literally as you step through your front door) and launder them. Thoroughly wipe your shoes, including the bottom, with bleach or disinfectant wipes.

    Yes, I sound paranoid. I have good reason for it - I deal with many new keepers and over the last few years I am seeing ever-increasing reports of animals with not only mites, but a significantly increased incidence of the big viral illnesses that are so terrifying to us as keepers because there is no treatment or cure for them.

    Anyway, in terms of what you can do - even realizing that a pet shop can (usually) not be expected to maintain the husbandry standards of a private keeper, what you describe here is problematic. I'd go ahead and submit a report to your local animal control office. Depending on where you are, they may or may not be knowledgeable about reptiles but it is still worth reporting. Good luck.
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