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  1. #21
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum View Post
    I don't breed boas, but it looks like Kahl T- and VPI T+ aren't compatible, so Kahl x VPI will yield all double hets.

    Apparently another T+ is 'Paradigm' -- Sharp albino x BWC hypo (a rare case of codominance). Since Kahl and Sharp aren't compatible, breeding a visual Paradigm to a visual Kahl would yield 50% het Kahl het Sharp and 50% het Kahl het BWC.

    This is all based on info from boamorph and the morphpedia. Someone knows this stuff off the top of their head, I'm sure. Some people can even keep track of ball python morphs, I've heard, so anything is possible.
    many thanks! i’ll def have to check out those sites! i was curious if the T+ would have any effect - but 2 types of normal albinos would produce albinos yes? eg: [Albino Kahl x Albino Sharp]?
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  2. #22
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    i’m basically trying to figure out how what i call the “albino complex” works, both in certain species and in all snakes generally, because every time i think i arrive at a proper understanding of this there’s something else that’s confusing eg: i still think it’s weird that leucism is not considered a albinic variation

    edit: by “albino complex” - this is my current belief that hypo, T+ albino, etc morphs are variations of albinism - tho i recognize i am probably wrong but that’s how i understand it at present anyway - cuz it’s like, take “hypo” which is characterized by reduced ability for pigment production so to me in that respect i see it as “mild albinism” (hopefully this will make sense)
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 02-20-2023 at 10:17 AM.
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  3. #23
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    No, Kahl and Sharp are not compatible. Breeding two homozygous recessives yields all double hets.

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  5. #24
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum View Post
    No, Kahl and Sharp are not compatible. Breeding two homozygous recessives yields all double hets.
    is double hets a bad thing tho? or does it just mean that say [Female Double Het] has the potential for both types of albinism, which could later produce litters of those, if said female had the right male partner? like if [Female Double Het] mated with [Male Kahl] they could produce Kahl albinos and if she mated with [Male T+ albino] they would get T+ albinos?
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 02-20-2023 at 11:31 AM.
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  6. #25
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YungRasputin View Post
    i’m basically trying to figure out how what i call the “albino complex” works, both in certain species and in all snakes generally, because every time i think i arrive at a proper understanding of this there’s something else that’s confusing eg: i still think it’s weird that leucism is not considered a albinic variation

    edit: by “albino complex” - this is my current belief that hypo, T+ albino, etc morphs are variations of albinism - tho i recognize i am probably wrong but that’s how i understand it at present anyway - cuz it’s like, take “hypo” which is characterized by reduced ability for pigment production so to me in that respect i see it as “mild albinism” (hopefully this will make sense)
    Well, albino genes (as the term is usually used: those genes that inhibit melanin production/expression) are somewhat different in different species, and different albino genes act on different steps in the metabolic pathways that produce pigment. Genetic recessives, dominance, codominance and incomplete dominance apply to all species, but how these things cash out for specific genes is different in different species (although I assume there's some clustering of functionality when the discussion is limited to only snakes).

    'Leucism' is a broad category that in some contexts includes albinism, axanthism, anerythrism, and piedbaldism, so the way the term is used in a specific context such as herp breeding is idosyncratic.

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  8. #26
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YungRasputin View Post
    is double hets a bad thing tho?
    Depending on the expectations of keepers, it may be. Hiding incompatible hets in animals with no good reason to do so is frowned on in some circles. In leopard geckos, Mack Snow and Gem Snow are only partially compatible, and mixing them (that is, hiding Gem in a the super form of Mack) is a big no no, as it makes the animal worthless for future breeding involving that gene. If I was sold a Mack Super Snow that turned out to be hiding Gem, I'd be furious, since by the time I figured it out I'd have scores of worthless offspring, and have mislead many buyers of my animals. Not sure how boa breeders view this, but I hope they frown on pointless crosses.

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  10. #27
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum View Post
    Depending on the expectations of keepers, it may be. Hiding incompatible hets in animals with no good reason to do so is frowned on in some circles. In leopard geckos, Mack Snow and Gem Snow are only partially compatible, and mixing them (that is, hiding Gem in a the super form of Mack) is a big no no, as it makes the animal worthless for future breeding involving that gene. If I was sold a Mack Super Snow that turned out to be hiding Gem, I'd be furious, since by the time I figured it out I'd have scores of worthless offspring, and have mislead many buyers of my animals. Not sure how boa breeders view this, but I hope they frown on pointless crosses.
    am v glad you say this because this is the type of thing i’m trying to avoid because for me the point is not to stack up traits but more to develop albinic variations within the 2 main species i am focusing on (Burms + Colombian red tails) - like with my mainland Burms they’re both Het for T+ albinism/Caramel, my dwarfs are Het for regular albinism and hypo and my current Colombian pair 1 totally normal female, 1 visual Kahl albino - so when i was asking my question i was wondering how such a pairing might turn out or if i really wanted to produce T+ albino Colombian would i need an accompanying male that was T+ albino

    that’s kind of where I stand on morphs - i prefer normal types of pure locality but i also think albinos are cool because a) outside of photophobia in T+ albino Colombians i haven’t seen any health defects in albino Burms and Colombians and b) while perhaps really rare, it’s something which could conceivably happen in the wild but that’s moreso my mindset here to put it more plainly
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 02-20-2023 at 12:51 PM.
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  11. #28
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    i would also say too that i originally thought maybe the “T” molecule in “T+” could just attach or combine onto regular albino DNA or something to that effect - just the same as i thought perhaps Sharp and Kahl were just regular albinos with different “finishes” eg: Sharp is more sharp while Kahl the pattern might be more wild like and less sharp
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 02-20-2023 at 12:54 PM.
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  12. #29
    BPnet Senior Member jmcrook's Avatar
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    Sharp albino and Kahl albino are named as such due to the last name of the breeders that founded those projects, Brian Sharp and Pete Kahl. It has nothing to do with how "sharp" the animal looks phenotypically.
    While the first albinos originated in and trace back to colombian boa breeding stock it is vastly unlikely that anyone has maintained locality specific breeding lines of albino boas, with the exception of T+ Argentines. At this point in the hobby albinos are pretty much entirely crosses between central american, colombian, etc. Also the "T" in "T+ Albino" stands for tyrosinase which is an enzyme that regulates the amount of melanin produced but does not entirely eliminate melanin as a "T-" or true albino does.
    Hope this demystifies some terms used in this thread.
    Last edited by jmcrook; 02-20-2023 at 02:25 PM.

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  14. #30
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
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    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by jmcrook View Post
    Sharp albino and Kahl albino are named as such due to the last name of the breeders that founded those projects, Brian Sharp and Pete Kahl. It has nothing to do with how "sharp" the animal looks phenotypically.
    While the first albinos originated in and trace back to colombian boa breeding stock it is vastly unlikely that anyone has maintained locality specific breeding lines of albino boas, with the exception of T+ Argentines. At this point in the hobby albinos are pretty much entirely crosses between central american, colombian, etc. Also the "T" in "T+ Albino" stands for tyrosinase which is an enzyme that regulates the amount of melanin produced but does not entirely eliminate melanin as a "T-" or true albino does.
    Hope this demystifies some terms used in this thread.
    this was most helpful yes and also what you described it what i am trying to do tbh (at least with my Colombians, i don’t think i’ll be ever to unwrap the mystery origins of my Burms) - as far as i know, my Kahl line albino male and Normal/Wild type female are of 100% Colombian origin, or, at least, this is what i was sold but at any rate, that’s my goal - it’s not enough that they’re the specific type of albino that i want they must also be 100% Colombian
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 02-20-2023 at 02:30 PM.
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