Vote for BP.Net for the 2013 Forum of the Year! Click here for more info.

» Site Navigation

» Home
 > FAQ

» Online Users: 269

1 members and 268 guests
Most users ever online was 6,337, 01-24-2020 at 04:30 AM.

» Today's Birthdays

None

» Stats

Members: 73,584
Threads: 247,566
Posts: 2,561,897
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
Welcome to our newest member, ballpython1223
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15
  1. #1
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-2022
    Location
    Appalachia
    Posts
    298
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 286 Times in 157 Posts
    Images: 21

    Padawan Breeder Questions

    rather than start a million threads with all my various breeding questions i thought it would be better to start 1 big thread that i can funnel them all into and too overtime as they come up because as previously stated in other threads, i have a lot of time and work to do between now and actually breeding

    todayís questions center mainly on pure locality breeding:

    -1: how do you establish pure locality breeding lines without inbreeding?

    -2: how would you replace a rare locality specimen without inbreeding when it could be next to impossible to find both a specimen from that species and more than that, is the correct sex thatís needed?

    expounding on 1: my confusion is take for example my Colombian Red Tails (CRTs) - my plan is to breed them and sell off all the offspring - as they closer to old age and begin to show signs of decline how could i preserve said line? should i hold back a female and then later pair that female with a 100% pure CRT male?

    which that seems easy with the CRTs as finding pure Colombians is not impossible just difficult but what about more rare localities like say my Rockhampton coastals or my Great Basin gophers? because Iím thinking about this itís like, worse comes to worse ďin theoryĒ (depending on Nevada/Utah law) i could go to the Great Basin desert and WC a breeding pair - i however could do not go to Australia and do the same because from what i understand theyíve banned animal exports
    het for nothing but groovy

  2. #2
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-2022
    Location
    Appalachia
    Posts
    298
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 286 Times in 157 Posts
    Images: 21
    if the above sounds confusing it’s basically what i would call a “run vs line” question - a “run” would be, for example, i breed my Rockhampton coastals for their lifecycle, then when 1 dies, the other becomes my pet, and i find a new breeding project - a “line” would be the opposite of that and i am actually establishing a permanent breeding line specific to that species and locality
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 01-19-2023 at 01:01 PM.
    het for nothing but groovy

  3. #3
    Registered User Malum Argenteum's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-17-2021
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    264
    Thanks
    399
    Thanked 578 Times in 223 Posts
    Images: 3

    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YungRasputin View Post
    i however could do not go to Australia and do the same because from what i understand theyíve banned animal exports
    Yes, they've always been banned, basically -- Australian federal legislation is only a couple decades old, but states had their own protections that predated pretty much any exports.

    That's a captive husbandry problem with smuggled lineage animals like the carpets you mention -- it isn't really possible to figure out which specimens are related to the rest. I suppose with these locality lines it might be easier, since the smuggling was much more recent ('localities' of all these species is a pretty new thing, certainly newer than AU federal protections). That's not to suggest that such species or lines are worthier projects, since the 'rare species/locale' hook encourages more trafficking (once one has lost its luster, new locales/species are needed).

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Malum Argenteum For This Useful Post:

    Homebody (01-19-2023),YungRasputin (01-19-2023)

  5. #4
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-2022
    Location
    Appalachia
    Posts
    298
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 286 Times in 157 Posts
    Images: 21

    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum View Post
    Yes, they've always been banned, basically -- Australian federal legislation is only a couple decades old, but states had their own protections that predated pretty much any exports.

    That's a captive husbandry problem with smuggled lineage animals like the carpets you mention -- it isn't really possible to figure out which specimens are related to the rest. I suppose with these locality lines it might be easier, since the smuggling was much more recent ('localities' of all these species is a pretty new thing, certainly newer than AU federal protections). That's not to suggest that such species or lines are worthier projects, since the 'rare species/locale' hook encourages more trafficking (once one has lost its luster, new locales/species are needed).
    i am unsure as to the full history of the Rockhampton coastal python locality within the US hobby - i don’t want to use ignorance as an excuse but i assumed that given that i used the top rated marketplace for reptiles in the US (MorphMarket) and got this pair from an established seller that had 100% rating, that everything would be on the “up and up” - which may have been naÔve perhaps on my part but yes

    with that said i think your comments do make things even more complicated for me as i don’t want to be associated with anything to do with smuggling/trafficking or the promotion thereof - i only want to be involved in/support ethical/legal import and export

    i would also so that while i can’t control the market or the desires of consumers my vision is simply to provide rare specimens for collectors and (hopefully) zoos as my standard is to try to have “zoo quality” or even “conservation level” purity in my runs or lines - i v much wish to highlight the natural awesomeness of my projects and provide collectors like me options

    eg: at one point my 1/4th of my arachnid collection was nothing but different locality forms of P. murinus/Orange Baboon Tarantulas (OBTs) - i loved my initial Usambara Mountain locality form and the species so i wanted to use my collection space to have each locality and compare them

    ^i am sure there are lots of snake hobbyists like this who may want to focus on a particular species and the different localities of that species - those are the sorts of people i want to cater too so the “rare” part to me/those collectors is moreso of finding a consistent source for that locality rather than a fleeting stop in the pursuit of fad ownerships - it’s like yeah the San Diego locality gophers may be more popular and easily available but you also need a source for the other localities to “complete the set” - if this makes sense

    consideration for permanent lines vs. temporary runs has a lot to do with my own personal goals as well as professional considerations - like, i want to make my gopher project permanent because i think the idea of having a nonvenomous rattlesnake is awesome and likewise, i might replace my CRT pair with for example, a black head python pair simply because their on my bucket list and i think they’re gorgeous

    of course just because i think and feel this way doesn’t negate what you say but i just wanted to say all that you know ftr
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 01-19-2023 at 02:59 PM.
    het for nothing but groovy

  6. #5
    BPnet Veteran
    Join Date
    06-07-2018
    Posts
    736
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 1,304 Times in 580 Posts
    Images: 5
    Sadly, people find a way to get animals in.
    There's someone on MM recently using a friend's death to 'inherit' multiple animals from Australia. And has openly said how excited they are to have new pure lines available soon in the US. So who knows how well even that sort of thing is managed there.

    Mostly on the outside looking in on localities and different lines of species...but this is my take on a bit. Someone with better knowledge can feel free to correct me.
    Regarding the line issue. It can be really difficult. Especially when it comes to the more protected species and imports. Dwarf retics are one of the ones being bred as locality lines. You'll see a lot of % numbers being thrown around between them. That's because of the outcrossing for particular genes or mixing of the localities. Once you outcross, no matter how much you cross back to that locality, it will never be pure again.
    Otherwise... You ideally would want a few pairs from the localities you want that way you could cross the offspring from one pair into another. Some line breeding in reptiles isn't as bad as it is on mammals, but to be safe, you want to avoid it as much as possible when you can.
    Being local to an area where you are allowed to collect can be a great boon to this sort of thing, but as long as it's done responsibly. But also remember you're looking at needing to deworm and medicate all of those animals as well, so starting with something like a group of 3.6 or such feels better to me than herping for what I need. It can also be a bit more expensive, but you can look for breeders who keep meticulous records for their lines as well. That way you can be sure that the line hasn't been fuddled with something else.
    Last edited by Armiyana; 01-19-2023 at 03:11 PM.

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Armiyana For This Useful Post:

    Bogertophis (01-19-2023),Homebody (01-19-2023),YungRasputin (01-19-2023)

  8. #6
    Registered User Malum Argenteum's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-17-2021
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    264
    Thanks
    399
    Thanked 578 Times in 223 Posts
    Images: 3
    "Sadly, people find a way to get animals in.
    There's someone on MM recently using a friend's death to 'inherit' multiple animals from Australia. And has openly said how excited they are to have new pure lines available soon in the US. So who knows how well even that sort of thing is managed there."

    According to CITES records, Australia has not ever permitted the export of a live specimen of a listed snake species for personal ("pet") use. Not once.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Malum Argenteum For This Useful Post:

    Bogertophis (01-19-2023),Homebody (01-19-2023),YungRasputin (01-19-2023)

  10. #7
    BPnet Veteran
    Join Date
    06-07-2018
    Posts
    736
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 1,304 Times in 580 Posts
    Images: 5
    All I know is the person claims to have dozens of animals coming in from Australia. *Shrug*

    "Anyway, bare with me for the next 3 weeks. I have to travel to North Dakota, then to Brisbane AU to get the inherited animals from Earlís collection.

    New GTP, Carpet and PIED and Ivory Ball python lines coming to the US!!!

    About 86 specimens to be exact."

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Armiyana For This Useful Post:

    Homebody (01-19-2023)

  12. #8
    Registered User Malum Argenteum's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-17-2021
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    264
    Thanks
    399
    Thanked 578 Times in 223 Posts
    Images: 3
    Yes, I saw that post.

  13. #9
    Registered User YungRasputin's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-2022
    Location
    Appalachia
    Posts
    298
    Thanks
    155
    Thanked 286 Times in 157 Posts
    Images: 21
    i went thru my messages and for what it’s worth, the description records state that my Rockhamptons were USCBB from a 2013 pair that my breeder obtained from another breeder (which i don’t want to say specific names but i’ve seen their name a lot and they seem to be an established breeder that’s focused on Morelia species let’s say) - now with that said how or when did the original pair from the original importer enter the US i’m not sure
    Last edited by YungRasputin; 01-19-2023 at 10:24 PM.
    het for nothing but groovy

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to YungRasputin For This Useful Post:

    Armiyana (01-19-2023)

  15. #10
    Registered User Malum Argenteum's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-17-2021
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    264
    Thanks
    399
    Thanked 578 Times in 223 Posts
    Images: 3

    Re: Padawan Breeder Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YungRasputin View Post
    i went thru my messages and for what itís worth, the description records state that my Rockhamptons were USCBB from a 2013 pair that my breeder obtained from another breeder (which i donít want to say specific names but iíve seen their name a lot and they seem to be an established breeder thatís focused on Morelia species letís say) - now with that said how or when did the original pair from the original importer enter the US iím not sure
    It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known. So, it is simply a matter of talking to people and tracing back until one finds a permitted export from Australia, or not.

    Where certain lines came from and whose hands they passed through would be interesting to know in any event.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Malum Argenteum For This Useful Post:

    Armiyana (01-19-2023)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.1