Very sick Baby. Help!

[ecoles5]

1. How long have you had your ball python?
10/16/22


2. How old (or how big) is your snake?

15 inches. Weight has been hard to get as she was 44g when I got her and went up to 65 and is now dropping

3. Does it eat on a regular schedule?
she isn’t eating



4. How long since its last meal?
Last Saturday she was syringe fed. A couple weeks before that.


5. What type/size prey is being offered?
Live hopper mice, tried a fuzzy
frozen thawed the same as well as pinkies


6. How often do you offer food?
Right now daily. Leading up to symptoms every 5-7 days


7. What type and size of enclosure does it live in?
20 long glass. Used to be a 40b but last month 20l



8. What are you using as substrate? If it has depth, how deep is it?
Vet has me using paper towels and clumps of moss for humidity


9. What type of heating do you use?
Uth and ceramic overhead


10. Do you use a thermostat to control temperatures?
Yes


11. What do you use to measure/monitor temperatures?

Both thermostats and extra digital in 3 other places as well as with probes

12. What are the surface and ambient temperatures in the enclosure?
90 at floor of UTH placement and 80 overall.



13. What is the average humidity level?
50-70


14. How many and what type of hides does the snake have?
2 hides on both side


15. Is water readily available at all times?
Yes


16. Does the snake live alone or does it share the enclosure with anything else?

Alone

17. How often and for how long is the snake typically handled?

Daily about 15 minutes. I usually gauge it by behavior.

18. Does the snake have any medical history (old injuries or illnesses)?

Current RI no known otherwise

19. Do you have any other reptiles? Have you brought in any new reptiles recently?
Bearded Dragon. A different floor of the house. Last weekend


20. Is there anything specific or unique about your situation that we should be aware of?
She began clicking a few weeks ago. Refusing food for 2 weeks. Brought her to vet and we started antibiotics 1 time a week as she was active, outside of changes to smaller tank and substrate to paper towels we didn’t test.
a couple days after 2nd round of antibiotics she got much much worse. Very bubbly red mouth, lethargy and they took a sample from her lungs. Negative for virus’s culture came back with mainly typical oral bacteria for mouth and body but in her lungs and resistant to all but one. (Came back yesterday). This morning she was very bad, thick mucus mouth, she tried to clear it in her soak, she would stick her face in and wiggle over and over
her mouth is clearly swollen on one side. Will be returning to vet later today.
vet is an exotics vet. A member of Association of Reptile Veterinarians (I may have that in the wrong phrase but still. ). They were recommended by every exotic vet I called when I first tried for her first appointment

please help! I spent over 1000 in vet bills and have been doing everything I have been told. I don’t know what else to do.

[Bogertophis]

There's a few big red flags that jump right out at me. STOP HANDLING immediately & never handle any snake that's not eating. A new snake must be allowed to "settle in" (adjust to new surroundings, since fear is a very good appetite suppressant) and all new snakes (any age, but especially young ones) should be allowed to eat at normal intervals (weekly or so, depending on age etc) for at least 3 times without refusals for any reason other than being in shed- BEFORE any handling. Seriously- stop handling this snake if you want it to survive.

There's a very good reason for this: even when captive-bred, our snakes are "wild animals"- that is, they rely on their instincts (not us) to survive. In the wild, anything that picks up a snake is normally a predator about to EAT them. So whether you can tell or not, handling a snake makes them nervous & fearful- which ruins their interest in food. If you love snakes, you must first let them BE snakes- learn to appreciate their needs first. They are not "domestic pets" but natural wild creatures learning to live with us- be very patient. In time most learn to accept our respectful handling, but for them to survive, eating is #1. That & plenty of rest & privacy.

If handling is a no-no, vet care is even more stressful, & antibiotics are hard on their bodies. To us, an RI may sound like a cold, no big deal, right? NO, as you can unfortunately now see, your snake is seriously ill. Snakes cannot cough to clear secretions- they can choke to death from an RI- their lungs can be plugged. You're here asking for help but right now, you'll have to depend on your vet's experience & skills to pull your snake through this. We're hoping right along with you. We cannot take the place of vet help, but when the husbandry is correct, that often helps to prevent snakes from getting sick. Once they're sick, your snake requires vet care, so please follow your vet's directions.

Back to husbandry mistakes though- for snakes to settle in & eat well for us, it's important for you to understand that stress is as disruptive & unhealthy for them as it is for us. And something else besides handling that causes them stress is offering food daily. Please never do that in the future. If your snake doesn't eat, wait a week before you try again. Trying to feed a snake daily just reduces the likelihood that they'll eat for you- it makes them a nervous wreck having to deal with prey that seems to pester them. Snakes are shy & mostly low-key animals- maybe not the best pets for those who want more social animals. Only when we remain patient- they learn to relax, feel safe & they do well.

It sounds like you started off having trouble feeding your snake- it's very important, when you get a new snake that has eaten previously, to make sure you offer the SAME prey & the SAME way when you first try to feed it. That makes success much more likely. (Though even choosing the right food & offering the same way, daily handling might have made your snake refuse anyway.)

Listen, I know how hard it is to get a new pet- we ALL want to interact with them, watch them, learn about them. But with snakes- easy does it. We've all made the same mistakes too, which is why we come here to help others figure out their snakes, & to be successful with them. It can be done, & I hope your snake gets well so you can learn the right ways. With snakes, it's much easier to KEEP them healthy with good husbandry practices than it is to get them healthy again once they're really sick.

I know that vet care is very expensive- that's why it's so important to do everything you can to keep your pet healthy from the start. By reducing stress- & by making sure they keep up their strength & immune system function by eating regularly. Remember that a new snake has already been stressed just from the process of being sold & shipped etc. so they're often in no shape to fight off pathogens they've already been exposed to along the way, especially if they're further stressed when in their new home.

It's very possible this snake was harboring this illness when you got her, & it's even possible that nothing you did or didn't do could have prevented her from getting sick- there's no way to know that for sure. It's awful to get a new pet you expect to enjoy for long time, only to have it become seriously ill. But with any living creatures, it can happen. Vet bills are awful too. I'm just explaining all this NOT to blame you for your mistakes, but only to help you understand & not repeat them in the future. You did great by providing so much information- that shows me you truly care & want to learn. And I wish you all the best with her recovery- I hope you'll keep us posted so others can learn too.

[ecoles5]

Question. She was eating in my care for about the first month. She was eating live hoppers. Maybe she ate 3 hoppers in my care. Once she refused I left her alone for a week and tried again. After she was syringe fed outside of the vets instructions for soaking and trying to offer food as per vet I have left her alone.
I probably phrased that wrong. Apologies. Cytology came back as a longer time infection then she had been symptomatic

Thank you!

[Bogertophis]

Question. She was eating in my care for about the first month. She was eating live hoppers. Maybe she ate 3 hoppers in my care. Once she refused I left her alone for a week and tried again. After she was syringe fed outside of the vets instructions for soaking and trying to offer food as per vet I have left her alone.
I probably phrased that wrong. Apologies. Cytology came back as a longer time infection then she had been symptomatic

Thank you!

I'm not clear what your "question" is? But I'm glad you had her eating at first- that wasn't clear before. And it's unfortunately not rare for snakes to already be saddled with an infection- some sources are riskier than others. Buying directly from a breeder usually reduces the risks (IF they have a good reputation), but if you buy from a pet store, their animals aren't quarantined, often come from multiple sources & are often exposed to many things along the way, not to mention, they're very stressed. Buying from an expo is somewhere in-between, since exposure to other (unhealthy) snakes can happen there too.

[ecoles5]

I think my question was is this over handling? And also she did shed in the middle of this. When they gave her first shot she immediately started shedding and she only got her eye caps off Tuesday. Her shed started from injection site down.

sorry I think if these things as I go.

I got her from an expo. She is a fire spider and vet said the spider could make her more susceptible to infection possibly as well. She doesn’t show wobble

[Bogertophis]

I think my question was is this over handling? And also she did shed in the middle of this. When they gave her first shot she immediately started shedding and she only got her eye caps off Tuesday. Her shed started from injection site down.

sorry I think if these things as I go.

I got her from an expo. She is a fire spider and vet said the spider could make her more susceptible to infection possibly as well. She doesn’t show wobble

If you were handling her before she ate 3 times, yes, definitely over-doing it. As far as after she ate 3+ times, daily is still a lot, & a month isn't very long for a new young snake. It's best to increase handling more gradually, as they seem to tolerate it better.

Handling is something many of us disagree about- you'll see many posts that say "keep it short" (like 15 minutes), but in my experience, snakes are most stressed when being picked up, & when being set back down. Try to remember how it felt when you were a little kid & that obnoxious uncle hoisted you up under protest. With snakes, you can tell that is stressful for them because that's when most bites occur. Think about it from their perspective- and 15 minutes, they have no time to relax & learn you're safe to be around. Personally, I tend to sit down & relax while holding a snake, & spend a longer time so they feel sheltered & safe.

The one angle where keeping it short is a good thing is when it's warm weather, because remember that with our added body heat, a small snake can more quickly become overheated- but they have no way to signal that other than keep trying to crawl away from restrictive hands. (Rather frustrating to be a snake, eh?)

Shedding after injection: Snakes shed when they grow, but also as a result of healing an injury or fighting illness- unlike us, they don't make localized repairs. As I said, medications (injected or otherwise) are hard on a snake's body.

If the vet said that the spider gene could make her more susceptible to infection, he or she would know better than I would about that- ask him/her to explain.

[plateOfFlan]

I'm really sorry your baby's having such a hard time
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but 44g sounds really really small, like "fresh out of the egg" small. A breeder really should not have been selling such a tiny hatchling, and it doesn't sound like she's been able to put much weight on in 2 months. It's great that you were able to get her to eat a few times but it sounds like the breeder sold you a runt who is going to be kind of a struggle to deal with unfortunately.
My female was 130g at 3 months, for reference. My male was a runt who hatched out at iirc 28g, so a tiny baby can recover for sure, but the breeder held him back for a year making sure he was eating on schedule and growing.

[Bogertophis]

@ ecoles5- By the way, I give you credit for seeking vet help fairly promptly & for choosing one that's well-qualified (ARAV) recommended from others. I just hope your "little one" makes a good recovery.

[ecoles5]

Thank you for your feedback. Just came back from vet. Infection moved up into her sinuses. They lavanged (sp) her out and sent a new culture and I will be injecting her now with a new antibiotic. So much for letting her chill. Other then that I know the vet wants me to try to get her to eat.

[Bogertophis]

Thank you for your feedback. Just came back from vet. Infection moved up into her sinuses. They lavanged (sp) her out and sent a new culture and I will be injecting her now with a new antibiotic. So much for letting her chill. Other then that I know the vet wants me to try to get her to eat.

Usually snakes undergoing treatments & injections won't eat- & also due to the side effects of some medications, depending on what your snake is being given. But do listen to your vet, as they have the full picture. Poor snake-