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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    Negative Layne Labs experience

    Before you scroll down, there's a somewhat disturbing photo of mistreated feeder animals in this post.

    I recently ordered from Layne Labs for the first time. I ordered a couple sizes of rats, small chicks and small quail.

    I haven't opened the chicks yet. The rats were fine -- a bit more broken legs and tails than I expected, and they do seem to freezerburn pretty quickly in those pouches, but fine.

    The quail weren't good. Most had broken off heads (after freezing, by the looks of the breaks), and some were obviously poorly treated before death. Here's a photo I took and posted to a review I submitted to Layne:











    The bird on the bottom had a mangled spot on its shoulder area that didn't happen after freezing, and the one on the left took a big hit to the head quite some time before dying, based on the swelling and crusting of blood.

    The quail from herp feeder sellers are certainly extras from the food industry (I presume the chicks are too -- extras left over after sexing out females), so I understand how they're likely treated. Since Layne promotes themselves as treating their animals humanely, I thought it important to point out to potential customers that their quail don't fall under that guideline.

    But Layne refused to publish a review with the same content as this post, twice. The first time they claimed not to have received it when I emailed to find out why it wasn't on their website. The second time I submitted the review it wasn't published, so I emailed and they responded with a voice message to my phone number to 'discuss the condition of the quail'. I emailed back and politely informed them that email was preferable so the discussion is documented, and asked them to publish the review, and that's the last I heard from Layne. They did publish the positive review I submitted for rats, and did so promptly. They apparently don't publish negative reviews, and apparently don't admit anything over email.

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  3. #2
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Wow, that's sad. But I admit I know nothing about raising quail or the quail industry. Do they fight with each other, like when overcrowded? Does Layne Labs even raise their own quail? I assume they don't. I have a hunch that if complaints continue, they'll just stop carrying them. But that's not a good business model to withhold criticism- it means their reviews are less than honest, if they only publish the good ones. It really impresses me when a company (in ANY industry) publishes even the negative reviews & attempts to solve them rather than hide them.

    With frozen rodents, yes it's normal for feet & tails to break off when frozen- they're just fragile when frozen & jostled around after being packed together.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #3
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    I don't raise quail, so I'm not sure about the particulars of their husbandry. I've researched them a bit in considering whether I want to raise them (I don't think so, as harvesting sounds tedious), though. I do raise chickens for meat and eggs, and a couple times guinea fowl, and my wife has raised turkeys and ducks. I get day old live chicks shipped to me, and I'm certain they're the same as quail in that there is no conflict between day old birds (a couple weeks in, the situation is different).

    The wording on Layne's website is careful to avoid saying that anything but rodents falls under their general claims of cleanliness, humane care, etc. I really doubt they raise these.

    The day old poultry industry hatches out eggs, and use those chicks to fill preorders for hobby keepers and at least some commercial producers (Murray McMurray offers discounts on 100+ lots, and that's not hobby keeping). Shorts on orders are not really a thing; presumably they hatch out way more than they have orders for, and the extras have to go somewhere. Some chicken breeds are sexable at hatch, and those get ordered very female heavy so there are a lot of males left, too.

    It is a high volume low profit margin industry, from what I can tell, and so I don't assume that treatment is anything but efficient. Birds get dropped on their heads accidentally, I'm sure. And that would make a fine feeder animal, actually.

    I simply wanted an admission of the situation from Layne, and a chance to point this out publicly. An apology (or even an explanation of the facts of feeder treatment) and the posting of the review (this most importantly) would have left me quite satisfied. I didn't ask for a refund, and don't really want one (though if I were the seller that would have been the first thing I would have offered; it is a very cost-effective way to keep customers happy and take blame for something that wasn't 100% right). As you point out, the coverup is the problematic part of this.

    I haven't gotten really any broken rats from my local herp shop (who orders them in from one of these companies), but they're tucked and block-frozen. I can see how the josling would break the IQF (individually quick frozen) loose packed ones.

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  7. #4
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    The difference too with the rats and mice that get jostled in shipping is the obvious factors you point out here.
    You'll almost never see any blood, bruising or swelling with the rodents as it's post mortem and frozen. The only really bleeding you ever do see is from the respiratory track after thaw.

    Blood caked feathers are obviously something that happens prior to or just moments after death. Swellings like the one wouldn't be as pervasive unless it happened a day prior.

    Sad to see something like that. A little bit sadder to hear Layne is sorting out the bad reviews. I totally understand wanting to have a document trail so things are laid out plainly with nothing left to he said she said....but to not even address the issue at hand. =/

    I was debating on Layne as a backup for feeders and I think I got my answer for the moment. Thankfully my own feeders breeding efforts are starting to step up. So maybe it won't come down to it.

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  9. #5
    BPnet Senior Member Lord Sorril's Avatar
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    Re: Negative Layne Labs experience

    My mother breeds quail for meat/eggs.

    Even with a decent amount of space some females will attack and gravely injure their flock mates (when they reach a certain age/size). More than one male in a cage and you can almost guarantee a bloodbath.

    I doubt any place that is breeding quail as 'feeders' will be single housing every individual of their flock. Look at enough quail feeders and you can be certain there will be injuries (some of them probably fatal).

    Of course with the nature of forums I'm sure someone will jump in and say that they keep quail as pets and every one of them is a well-tempered angel-if you do 'xyz'. Yeah right...
    Last edited by Lord Sorril; 12-11-2022 at 05:27 PM.
    *.* TNTC

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  11. #6
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Negative Layne Labs experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sorril View Post
    My mother breeds quail for meat/eggs.

    Even with a decent amount of space some females will attack and gravely injure their flock mates (when they reach a certain age/size). More than one male in a cage and you can almost guarantee a bloodbath.

    I doubt any place that is breeding quail as 'feeders' will be single housing every individual of their flock. Look at enough quail feeders and you can be certain there will be injuries (some of them probably fatal).

    Of course with the nature of forums I'm sure someone will jump in and say that they keep quail as pets and every one of them is a well-tempered angel-if you do 'xyz'. Yeah right...
    That's very helpful- getting the perspective from a private breeder. And it's what I suspected, that some quail attack each other, but without direct quail experience I couldn't say. I know I've even seen free-ranging chickens that will pick on & badly injure one of their own (chicks) for no apparent reason (with plenty of food & space), so I just figured quail might also do similar things. When large numbers of poultry or game birds are raised, maybe you have to expect some injuries, & it would make little sense to waste them when they're being fed as prey animals. It's right to ask questions though.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 12-11-2022 at 05:46 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  13. #7
    BPnet Royalty Gio's Avatar
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    Re: Negative Layne Labs experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Sorril View Post
    My mother breeds quail for meat/eggs.

    Even with a decent amount of space some females will attack and gravely injure their flock mates (when they reach a certain age/size). More than one male in a cage and you can almost guarantee a bloodbath.

    I doubt any place that is breeding quail as 'feeders' will be single housing every individual of their flock. Look at enough quail feeders and you can be certain there will be injuries (some of them probably fatal).

    Of course with the nature of forums I'm sure someone will jump in and say that they keep quail as pets and every one of them is a well-tempered angel-if you do 'xyz'. Yeah right...
    Good info above.

    I've never had issues with Layne.

    Headless quail happen, though the older the quail the less I see it. I assume some of the necks/heads are weak and get more brittle and susceptible to breaking after being frozen and stuck to another bird in the package. I've never had any rabbits or rats that were in poor shape. Other companies have sent rabbits and rats with urine stains on them and some of them have smelled after thawing.

    Layne packs everything very well IMO however the shipping cost for me is pretty high.

    I'm sure every seller will send a bad shipment now and then but in all honesty the 4+ years of used Layne, I've been happy.

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