ID Help- Mystery Sire

[Mother_ofsnakes]

This is an interesting and somewhat long story so TLDR below, full story at the end of the post.

We are just getting into breeding BP’s and would love to get some expert eyes and opinions on what these hatchlings might be, thanks to all who are able to assist!

Provided Imur links for photos of the hatchling #1 and hatchling #2 in question and the dam for both.



The amateur guess is that hatchling #1 is a Mojave and Hatchling #2 could possibly be a fire Mojave or Mojave x something else due to the very intense yellow dorsal color and intense blushing already. Also second guessing if the dam has any other genes, or if she is in-fact a nice looking Mojave. That being said, this could all be wishful thinking on what are undoubtedly some good looking Mojave's.


Full Story:

We purchased a very nice looking Mojave female proven breeder back in May 2022 at a reptile show. Late June she showed signs of ovulation. Sure enough in early September she laid a clutch of 8 eggs (2 slugs, 6 fertile).

We reached out to the breeder to see what she was paired with and they said they didn’t reminder her being paired at all and could not tell us what the sire was. A bit odd but we figured they were bonus snakes so no worries. The breeder we purchased the Dam from is a decent sized operation and is also well established so the hunch is that she was acquired in a trade with no parties involved knowing the mating with her mystery sire was successful....

Unfortunately 1 of the eggs went bad halfway through incubation. At 57 days the first two eggs pipped and we waited another two days to cut, sadly the three remaining eggs contained well developed/full term but deceased hatchlings. Interestingly enough two of the three deceased eggs were black eyed leucistic (solid almost pink white with what appeared to be black eyes), and the third deceased hatchling looked similar to the two surviving hatchlings. The three that were deceased had a large amount of yolk left that had not been absorbed, while the two hatchlings that came out all natural were fully absorbed and out of the shell within a day or two of piping. Still not sure what happened but it was quite a bummer.

[Armiyana]

Honestly this girl feels more like a possible lesser to me than a mojave... mostly because of the lack of pronounced circles
fire is a bit of a toss up. I've seen a couple of lessers that do look similar, but the BlkEL does make it seem like a possibility. Are you sure they weren't just a dark steel blue? I'll post a couple of photos of my Mojave Lessers and one Lesser Special hatchlings from last year. They had very dark eyes compared to the super mojos I hatched this year.
https://imgur.com/a/NRRx6le

Also, my mojave fire coral glow and her daughter a mojave fire ghost to show off those floating alien heads/cherrios and so on.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FR7eEBIV...jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fbk8IN2V...jpg&name=large

[Armiyana]

Also in regards to the babies....
I'm honestly not seeming what I would call mojave in either hatchling... or if#1 is, it's not a strong expression of it. They both have stronger belly patterns that mojaves or fires usually don't have. I would personally just think they're nice normals unless you held them back to prove out what they are. If I were to sell them, I would probably list them as dinkers because the dad is unknown genetics but I feel like #1 might have something going on.

[Mother_ofsnakes]

Also in regards to the babies....
I'm honestly not seeming what I would call mojave in either hatchling... or if#1 is, it's not a strong expression of it. They both have stronger belly patterns that mojaves or fires usually don't have. I would personally just think they're nice normals unless you held them back to prove out what they are. If I were to sell them, I would probably list them as dinkers because the dad is unknown genetics but I feel like #1 might have something going on.

Thanks for the information Armiyana, appreciate the help. We were wondering if anyone was going to respond!

We have an update on the Sire!. We finally heard back from the breeder, we figured it was worth reaching out again and pleading our case on more time. Success!

After some discussion we found out that the breeder thought the female we purchased was a Firefly Mojave, not sure why she wasn't sold to us as such but our guess is they couldn't prove it out. After doing some looking around on the web she does look like one, just a bit lighter with more white washing on the sides than most of the pictures we saw. She also could be a Lesser as you mentioned Armiyana, possibly even a Firefly Lesser.

The breeder thinks she was paired up a couple times with a Leopard OD Fire male, but is looking into their breeding records and is going to get back with me to confirm. Haven't heard back yet but will update this thread when we do.

Given all this Armiyana, does it change your evaluation of what the babies could be?

Either way, we are going to keep them since they were our first hatchlings and now have more of a sentimental value. That being said, it would be great to know if they had any other genes to bring to the table so we can effectively use them in our future breeding plans.

[Armiyana]

I think they may be distracted by the holidays but Nikkubus here is probably the best bet for a better idea on the genetics if they pop in to check. Albert is pretty great with them too just an odd time of year.

#1 does have some chaining and dark color that I almost thought was a bit similar to blk pastel but not as extreme, so the leopard may be the explanation there. But nowhere near how it would look if you added any of the other genes. So if anything, maybe a low expression of the leopard gene.

#2 still looks a bit too gritty in the alien heads to be orange dream. OD tends to clean them up and make most of the eyes disappear.

Hopefully it helps! I wish I could be more help. Fire is sometimes frustratingly easy to miss. I didn't catch it in a hatchling until the 3rd shed and the blushing came in like crazy. But they did have a bit of the headstamp that made me wonder if they did. I'm not seeing a definitive headstamp for it on either.

[Mother_ofsnakes]

Thanks, you have been very helpful!!

After reaching out to a few people and posting on other forums there seems to be a consensus the Dam is Lesser, jury is still out on what else but have heard a few say she is Firefly as well.

Still not getting any clear ID’s on the hatchlings but they are both females so we will hold on to them and maybe their genes will become clearer over time.