My Rat Snake May Have IBD?

[Aspen0122]

Hey all, my grey rat snake is just a few months old and is acting really weird. I got him just recently and I'm afraid he might have IBD (Inclusion Body Disease or Stargazing Syndrome). He keeps going in circles, waving his head around, his eyes flick around in his head, and when I go to his enclosure, he has half of his body sticking straight up. Any ideas on what this might be?

[Homebody]

Hey all, my grey rat snake is just a few months old and is acting really weird. I got him just recently and I'm afraid he might have IBD (Inclusion Body Disease or Stargazing Syndrome). He keeps going in circles, waving his head around, his eyes flick around in his head, and when I go to his enclosure, he has half of his body sticking straight up. Any ideas on what this might be?

Pics, or better yet, a video would help. You can find instructions for uploading pics here and video here.

[Aspen0122]

I don't have a way to upload videos, I take them with my camera. I am using a laptop right now.

[Bogertophis]

Tell us more about how he's being kept. Temperatures (highest & lowest), size of enclosure, humidity, substrate, what kind of heat are you using, & anything else that might be relevant.

Has he been dropped or taken any falls? Are there climbing branches in his home- can he hang on to them? What's his appetite been like?

I see you also have a turtle- do you keep your snake away from the turtle at ALL times & always wash your hands thoroughly between handling or caring for them? This is very important, as most turtles carry salmonella, & your snake can catch that or other things (pathogens & parasites) from other pets you have.

Your snake sounds fairly sick by your description & by your level of concern- how long has he been like this? You may need to see an experienced herp vet since there's a limit to what we can diagnose or help you with here, & if you need to find one in your area, this may help: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661 (But just so you know, IBD is scary for sure, but unlikely to be the issue with your rat snake.)

[Homebody]

I don't have a way to upload videos, I take them with my camera. I am using a laptop right now.

My daughter shot this video with her phone. I uploaded it to Youtube and linked it from there, just like the thread instructed. Easy peasy.

[Aspen0122]

Tell us more about how he's being kept. Temperatures (highest & lowest), size of enclosure, humidity, substrate, what kind of heat are you using, & anything else that might be relevant.

Has he been dropped or taken any falls? Are there climbing branches in his home- can he hang on to them? What's his appetite been like?

I see you also have a turtle- do you keep your snake away from the turtle at ALL times & always wash your hands thoroughly between handling or caring for them? This is very important, as most turtles carry salmonella, & your snake can catch that or other things (pathogens & parasites) from other pets you have.

Your snake sounds fairly sick by your description & by your level of concern- how long has he been like this? You may need to see an experienced herp vet since there's a limit to what we can diagnose or help you with here, & if you need to find one in your area, this may help: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661 (But just so you know, IBD is scary for sure, but unlikely to be the issue with your rat snake.)

He has not been dropped or taken any falls that I know of. I have noticed though, a small bump on the top of his back and has been there since I have gotten him, so it's not food digesting. I don't know what it is, it may be a causing factor of what's happening. There are two climbing branches in his enclosure. He has had this problem since we got him and we got our turtle a week after we got him. I wash my hands before AND after I handle him and clean out his enclosure. I have researched what to feed him b/c I don't have access to pinkies, so I have been feeding him large insects such as crickets and grasshoppers.

[Bogertophis]

He has not been dropped or taken any falls that I know of. I have noticed though, a small bump on the top of his back and has been there since I have gotten him, so it's not food digesting. I don't know what it is, it may be a causing factor of what's happening. There are two climbing branches in his enclosure. He has had this problem since we got him and we got our turtle a week after we got him. I wash my hands before AND after I handle him and clean out his enclosure. I have researched what to feed him b/c I don't have access to pinkies, so I have been feeding him large insects such as crickets and grasshoppers.

Rat snakes are NOT supposed to eat (ie. live on) insects & you should NOT try to keep him as a pet if you cannot feed him properly what he SHOULD be eating- either mice or rats of appropriate size. As for "access" to pinkies, you can buy them frozen online & shipped to you, if nothing else. Granted, they're pricey that way, because they must be shipped on ice, but you DO have access to proper food for him for a price. You can also check on social media for anyone local to you that might be raising their own & have extras (as I do). You can also ask local veterinary offices if they know of anyone who can help you with this issue.

It's not acceptable to expect this snake to survive on insects, & that might even be what's wrong with him, since feeding wild* insects (*I assume) often are contaminated by pesticides or other chemicals outside which could be causing this in your snake. I'm surprised he's eating insects for you, but that just shows he's desperate for food- rat snakes are usually great feeders. It's cruel, in my opinion, for you to continue keeping this snake in this manner.

I cannot be sure without seeing it, & not even then since online is not a proper exam as a vet would do in person- but a bump on his back sounds like it might be a spinal kink he was hatched with, & that could also be responsible for neurological symptoms (such as you're seeing). Such spinal kinks can cause pain & disability, besides the neurological symptoms, & this snake should be seen by a qualified veterinarian to assess his realistic quality of life.

Sometimes a snake hatches out with a kink (bump) & seems fine, but as they grow, pressure is put on the spinal cord that causes symptoms & changes the situation drastically. I recently had to euthanize one of my rat snakes for that very reason- she had some kinks & was fine with them until she got to about 3 years old- then she could no longer move properly & her quality of life changed drastically- sadly rather quickly. She was a really sweet little snake, but I had to do the right thing for her sake.

It's a small chance of him having IBD, by the way, as it's not that common, & typically rat snakes don't seem to catch it (though they may carry it)- but where did you get this snake? Have you spoken to the breeder or store or other source about this? (Or is he a wild-caught?) There are a number of other serious illnesses that snakes can also have- not just IBD. If you cannot afford proper food, AND proper vet care for this snake, please consider returning him to the source if that's possible, or consider rehoming him to someone who can afford his proper care. Depending on where you are, there many even be some who rescue reptiles near you- ask around- ask vets, ask the nearest zoo, ask the nearest herp. society, etc. I don't mean to be so negative, but if you continue keeping him this way without proper food & vet care, it's just not likely to end well, & it's cruel to deny proper food & needed medical attention.

[Malum Argenteum]

Those symptoms are consistent with ophidian paramyxovirus and reovirus. As mentioned, IBD reptarenavirus is known in colubrids.

I'll second the comment that insects are not at all a suitable diet. The snake will need to eat appropriately sized rodent prey for its entire life, starting immediately (the nutritional profile of insects is completely inadequate for a growing snake, and it can be expected to show malnutrition symptoms very quickly -- weeks). It either needs a proper (i.e. rodent) diet or it needs to be rehomed.

And not to pile on, but box turtles are very much less tolerant of deviations from ideal care than are rat snakes. Box turtles, especially when first acquired, are very willing to take ill in a variety of ways and tend to be relatively unresponsive to treatment. I've had simple infections in mine that required multiple vet visits and antibiotic injections for months. One of ours was ill for nine months before we (vet didn't find it) finally figured out it had amoebiasis. Their nutritional and housing needs are also not insubstantial.

[Aspen0122]

Thank you guys for all of the help, I really appreciate it. As you all have recommended, I am going to rehome him, because I don't really have access to a suitable diet for him. Again, thank you guys, and I hope that his new owner will take the best care of him, as he deserves.

[Homebody]

Thank you guys for all of the help, I really appreciate it. As you all have recommended, I am going to rehome him, because I don't really have access to a suitable diet for him. Again, thank you guys, and I hope that his new owner will take the best care of him, as he deserves.

I applaud your decision. It's tough to admit that you can't provide the proper care and do what's best for the animal.