Need a little help with the ID of my latest clutch!

[AlexAldrete]

Hello everyone! I just had my second ever ball python clutch hatch a few weeks ago, and the last of them just shed out this morning, so I figure it's time to start worrying about identifying the genetics and picking holdbacks. The genetics involved are pretty simple (enchi/cinnamon male to pastel female), but surprisingly, I'm a bit confused about some of the hatchlings, so I thought I'd ask you guys for help.

1
https://ibb.co/cD4k8rB

2
https://ibb.co/thgJCB9

3
https://ibb.co/h2Gjdmj

4
https://ibb.co/RHY23cS

5
https://ibb.co/2jPrG95

I'm pretty sure hatchlings 1 and 3 are enchi. Which means hatchlings 2 and 4 should be cinnamon, because they are clearly not pastel or enchi, and enchi/cinnamon is supposed to be an allelic combination, so they shouldn't benormal either. And that's where my confusion begins. They don't look like cinnamons to me. Could it be that my male was never a cinnamon in the first place, but rather another dark gene?

As for baby number 5, I'm thinking pewter, although the pattern seems busier and the yellow brighter than other pewters I've seen. Then again, it could be just that mine still has its bright hatchling colors, and it'll wash out with age.

At any rate, any input would be highly appreciated! Take care everyone.

[AlexAldrete]

Pictures of the parents just in case they're needed:

https://ibb.co/2vt3bM2

https://ibb.co/DD6B8pb

[Armiyana]

My guess is that there's something else with dad that isn't cinnamon or black pastel. I don't know what it is but it's throwing the dark color babies with lots of little black speckles in the alien heads... his headstamp is throwing me off.
I feel like mom might be carrying yellowbelly.

Nikkubus is pretty good at sussing these guys out so hopefully they'll have some insight too

[nikkubus]

While the male's pattern does look like Cinnamon Enchi for the most part with the blushing and large amount of black areas, I suspect he is not actually Cinnamon because of how his eye stripe looks. Cinnamons almost always have a smudged look at the back of that stripe, except certain combos that really undo that. The way his headstamp looks, I'm guessing he's got some stacked brightening genes causing all that blushing. I don't see that smudge on the babies either.

This particular viewing angle makes it pretty tough to get a good look at pattern, especially the faces, but I would agree 1 & 3 are Enchi.
2 Looks especially dark, but not at all in the way a Cinnamon would. 4 looks pretty normal. 5 looks like Pastel + ? some brightening gene perhaps. One of the Enchi OS has pretty strong blushing and flaming, so I suspect whatever that morph is, it's the same on both 5 and that Enchi.

As far as ID'ing the darkening gene, I would look closely at Chocolate, Raven, and some of the other darkening genes that aren't a part of the black-back complex like Cinnamon, HRA, Black Pastel, etc. I don't have time to dig through right now and don't have a ton of experience with those, but it's at least a starting point.

As far as what brightening morph(s) I'd check the bellies for tracks for hints of YB being there first. See if you can get some better pics of side pattern and I can take a closer look to help better ID them.

[AlexAldrete]

Thanks a lot for your input guys! Although I must say, I now have even more questions about what might be going on with this particular clutch.

I thoroughly agree on the two darker babies not looking like the average cinnamon or dark pastel, mainly because of the fact that they don't have that "blurred" or "smudged" effect on the eyestripes nikkubus was referring to, or the washed out chocolate tone to the head, both of which are staple traits of those genes. However, I just realized while I was reading that comment that this same male sired another clutch for me last year, and he did produce a somewhat cinnamon looking baby. He was paired to a pinstripe female, and at the time I ID'd the hatchling as a pinstripe/cinammon, although now I'm starting to second guess that as well.

As for baby number 5, I thought he definitely looked like a pewter, perhaps with something else thrown into the mix, but I was pretty sure I saw some cinnamon/black pastel influence because of all the grays and whites. Is there any other gene outside the cinny complex that could create such an effect? God, I feel like such a noob struggling with this. I mean, it's not even like there's a ton of genetics involved lol. Anyways, I find it a bit hard to believe that they sold me a chocolate, raven or some other gene instead of a cinnamon, mainly because I'm from Mexico and over here the newer/fancier genes are not very common. They are around, but for the most part what you'll see are the more classic ones, like cinnamon.

Right now my theory is that the father is a cinnamon or black pastel, BUT there's some other unknown gene muddying the waters. Not sure though. Anyways, I'll try to snap some better pictures of the babies when I get home later. For now I'll post a couple pics of that hatchling I mentioned from last year, just to see if it can help confirm the presence of cinnamon (or a similar gene) on the father:

https://ibb.co/GvVZPTr

https://ibb.co/tqFVcYx

Come to think of it, he does look a bit too yellow to be cinnamon/enchi, which seem to be more dull-colored overall, but personally I can see some influence on the head...

[nikkubus]

Wow, that other baby does look Cinnamon Pinstripe! It has the smudge and correct pattern. The color looks almost too bright on the yellower parts. especially the dorsal, but the black is DARK. Maybe just lighting?

There could be some random gene that isn't really a "morph" that dad has that erases the smudge and the two from the current clutch got it, but the pin didn't? Really a head-scratcher!

Even experts can be left feeling like newbs sometimes because of the sheer number of morphs that BP's have! Don't worry. You are doing the right thing by noticing something is funny and asking around. That's what we all do when we run into something confusing and feel like maybe we made a mistake if we care enough to give buyers accurate info. If we could do this completely full time like some of the big guys we might be able to keep up better with the massive amount of morphs being discovered but it's basically impossible at the hobby-low volume pro level and we have to just find our favorite little niche to focus on.

I'll check in again when you get some more baby pics.

[AlexAldrete]

Okay, I managed to snap some more pics of the hatchlings. It was a pain to do it one handed while they squirmed around, but I hope they are decent enough. Here are top, lateral and ventral shots of every one of them, in the same order I used on my original post:

Hatchling number 1:
https://im.ge/i/Fe2Cdf
https://im.ge/i/Fe2EPm
https://im.ge/i/Fe2xkr

Hatchling number 2:
https://im.ge/i/Fe2yn1
https://im.ge/i/Fe2txP
https://im.ge/i/Fe2YuW

Hatchling number 3:
https://im.ge/i/Fe2b90
https://im.ge/i/Fe28Qc
https://im.ge/i/Fe2cRT

Hatchling number 4:
https://im.ge/i/Fe2RLL
https://im.ge/i/Fe2WxG
https://im.ge/i/Fe2Znx

Hatchling number 5:

https://im.ge/i/Fe2Vqa
https://im.ge/i/Fe2fPJ
https://im.ge/i/Fe2kky

And I also managed to get a couple current pics of that cinnamon looking pinstripe from last year. He actually ended up with a friend of mine, so I just asked if he could take some for me. He looks even more like a cinnamon to me now that he's a bit older, but the dorsal stripe still looks a bit too bright, especially going back towards the tail.

https://im.ge/i/Fe2HFS
https://im.ge/i/Fe2p9z

Anyways, I'm really grateful for all the insight you have been giving me. It has been super helpful. And even if we don't manage to pin down exactly what's going on with these little guys, it's always fun to discuss genetics with other ball python enthusiasts!

[nikkubus]

1. Decent chance of YB or other morph that causes belly tracks. Decent flaming. Pretty large amount of dark black with a tiny bit of blushing. Clear side pattern. Not only is there no smudge of the eye stripe, but no classic Cinnamon rusty blushing in the neck. Possible Enchi YB.

2. Strong tracks. Very shrunken side pattern, lots of black, fracturing in side pattern. Not nearly as cleaned up as 1. No smudge, normal eye stripe, no Cinnamon rusty neck blushing. Possible Black Pastel YB.

3. Normal belly. Clean side pattern. Pretty normal amount of side pattern vs black. Looks like just Enchi.

4. Decent tracks. Reduced/fractured eyes in side pattern but not clean, parts look similar to Black Pastel. Side pattern seems dark, is this accurate or lighting? Some flaming but not a lot. Very little dorsal pattern. Eye striping looks normal. Possible Black Pastel.

5. Decent tracks. Heavy blushing throughout almost like Super Pastel but not quite. Reduced brown from Pastel influence. Keyholing in side pattern. Reduced dorsal pattern. Eye stripe looks normal. Interesting fracturing of lower side pattern could mean something, similar to what shows up in Kinova projects like Pompei, which makes me really wonder about the darkening gene being Black Pastel, but if it is, same rules go as for Cinnamon, can't be Black Pastel Enchi from this clutch and every OS must have one or the other. Possibly very high quality Pastel YB, but I'm thinking Black Pastel Pastel.

Some input from others might help but that's what I'm thinking at this point after getting better look at the pattern. I feel like YB and Black Pastel both cause some tracking, but the two together are causing the strongest ones in 2.

Edit: Great job on pictures by the way! It's tough alone, but you did a great job showing the different parts so we can see what's going on better.

[AlexAldrete]

1. Decent chance of YB or other morph that causes belly tracks. Decent flaming. Pretty large amount of dark black with a tiny bit of blushing. Clear side pattern. Not only is there no smudge of the eye stripe, but no classic Cinnamon rusty blushing in the neck. Possible Enchi YB.

2. Strong tracks. Very shrunken side pattern, lots of black, fracturing in side pattern. Not nearly as cleaned up as 1. No smudge, normal eye stripe, no Cinnamon rusty neck blushing. Possible Black Pastel YB.

3. Normal belly. Clean side pattern. Pretty normal amount of side pattern vs black. Looks like just Enchi.

4. Decent tracks. Reduced/fractured eyes in side pattern but not clean, parts look similar to Black Pastel. Side pattern seems dark, is this accurate or lighting? Some flaming but not a lot. Very little dorsal pattern. Eye striping looks normal. Possible Black Pastel.

5. Decent tracks. Heavy blushing throughout almost like Super Pastel but not quite. Reduced brown from Pastel influence. Keyholing in side pattern. Reduced dorsal pattern. Eye stripe looks normal. Interesting fracturing of lower side pattern could mean something, similar to what shows up in Kinova projects like Pompei, which makes me really wonder about the darkening gene being Black Pastel, but if it is, same rules go as for Cinnamon, can't be Black Pastel Enchi from this clutch and every OS must have one or the other. Possibly very high quality Pastel YB, but I'm thinking Black Pastel Pastel.

Some input from others might help but that's what I'm thinking at this point after getting better look at the pattern. I feel like YB and Black Pastel both cause some tracking, but the two together are causing the strongest ones in 2.

Edit: Great job on pictures by the way! It's tough alone, but you did a great job showing the different parts so we can see what's going on better.

I'd say those guesses are pretty consistent with what I'm thinking at the moment. The entire clutch seems to be a mixed bag of enchi, pastel, yellow belly (or some other brightening, track making gene) and black pastel (or some other darkening gene). So, would black pastel be the main subject for the darkening gene, then? I never completely understood the difference between it and cinnamon, to be honest. Although form what I've seen, black pastel seems to be a higher contrast darkener, with deeper blacks and brighter golds, as opposed to the rusty brown color cinnamon seems to give the entire body of the snake. If that's the case, then that's definitely consistent with what I'm seeing in this clutch.

I'm intrigued by the possible presence of yellow belly, especially since I just got a yellow belly female from the same dealer I got the parents of this clutch, and she looks kinda similar to the two darker offspring. I was a bit annoyed at that at first, as I thought it was a bad investment to get a snake only to find out I already had that gene and didn't know it. But now I'm thinking I can raise her up and breed her to one of the animals in this clutch suspected of having yellow belly, and if an ivory pops out, then bam! I can confirm it being there. I could do a similar thing with the darkening gene, breeding them amongst themselves to see if I get any 8 ball looking animals, and then I'd at least know it's either cinnamon or black pastel. I'm a bit reluctant to do that because of the supposed birth deffects associated with the super forms on the cinny complex, though.

Now I'm having a really hard time picking a holdback. At first I thought I'd keep only number 5, but now I'm thinking number 2 might have to stay as well. I'd keep them all if it was up to me, but my parents probably wouldn't be happy about that lol. I'll try to sell the ones I don't keep to friends, that way they'll be more understanding on not getting an exact diagnosis on the genetics, plus I'll get to keep an eye on them and see what they end up looking like.

Again, thank you a lot for the help. It's been invaluable.

[nikkubus]

So, would black pastel be the main subject for the darkening gene, then? I never completely understood the difference between it and cinnamon, to be honest.

That's what I'm thinking. Here are a couple examples and the differences I see between the two, though they do vary a little:

Black Pastels (from MM) Notice the gritty/granite-like look in the side pattern, side pattern color is a richer reddish brown than a normal, eye stripes are normal, increased amount of black and the black is black:



Cinnamons (MM) Notice the blushing with rusty/cinnamon color, especially in head and neck, blurred back of eye stripe, fairly clean side pattern that sometimes keyholes or blends together more, increased black but it's rusty dark brown really:

I'm intrigued by the possible presence of yellow belly, especially since I just got a yellow belly female from the same dealer I got the parents of this clutch, and she looks kinda similar to the two darker offspring. I was a bit annoyed at that at first, as I thought it was a bad investment to get a snake only to find out I already had that gene and didn't know it. But now I'm thinking I can raise her up and breed her to one of the animals in this clutch suspected of having yellow belly, and if an ivory pops out, then bam! I can confirm it being there.

Yes, and if you get a Freeway or similar you could prove out something even cooler like Asphalt

I could do a similar thing with the darkening gene, breeding them amongst themselves to see if I get any 8 ball looking animals, and then I'd at least know it's either cinnamon or black pastel. I'm a bit reluctant to do that because of the supposed birth deffects associated with the super forms on the cinny complex, though.

8 ball can be tough to tell from Super Cinny or Super Black Pastel so it's probably not worth the risk of defects.

Now I'm having a really hard time picking a holdback. At first I thought I'd keep only number 5, but now I'm thinking number 2 might have to stay as well. I'd keep them all if it was up to me, but my parents probably wouldn't be happy about that lol. I'll try to sell the ones I don't keep to friends, that way they'll be more understanding on not getting an exact diagnosis on the genetics, plus I'll get to keep an eye on them and see what they end up looking like.

Again, thank you a lot for the help. It's been invaluable.

It can be sooo tough to chose sometimes. I'd get them sexed and maybe think about some possible breeding scenarios before you decide, and lean heavily towards selling males besides possibly 5, just because you can always just breed dad to a second female instead of having 2 males with the same genetics.

You're welcome and good luck!