Holdback ID help required...

[Mehelya]

Hi all,

I did a few pairings this last season, which ended in January for me (southern hemisphere). I had two clutches go full term, and I found a keeper in each clutch. Unfortunately, I don't have pics of the adults at the moment, but will take some as soon as I can. I'll give lineage with each baby I kept back, but they are stumping me a tad, and would just like some (more) expert opinions...

The first clutch was a spider female, and then it gets tricky... I didn't pair her this last season, but the season before (2021),she gave me 8 good eggs all fathered by an enchi. Although I had also used a pastel ph pied and observed locks, only enchi based offspring resulted. This season (2022), she laid 5 good eggs, and 3 duds, without being paired this last season... and the one resultant I decided to hold onto, it was just super bright, and I thought I'd scored a really nice enchi, but then something seemed off as it has been growing...

The super bright
Dorsal

Ventral


Then I had another spider drop a first clutch of 5 eggs, and the father, by all accounts should be the enchi as well (only have the one male), although, I faintly remember trying the pastel poss het pied on her as well for a day or two, but it wasn't in my meticulously kept records at all.

And that doubtful union presented me with this little honey...
Dorsal

Ventral


So, I have a funny idea the first one is either a weird pastel or a funky enchi, and the second one is a normal het pied? Anyone keen to take a stab?

Either way, I appreciate any help, and thank you inadvance.

[Bogertophis]

Not a clue, but just hang on until the experts at genetics happen by. All I know is that they're pretty...

[nikkubus]

First looks like Enchi + Fire or similar.
Second I'm not sure what's going on. It almost looks like it's trying to be Spider but only got halfway there. Someone posted about Satin the other day, which apparently causes alienheads to bleed together like that. I don't have any experience with it but may be worth looking into https://www.morphmarket.com/morphped...pythons/satin/

[Mehelya]

Thanks Bogertophis. That was my thought when I picked them out. They just stood out for me.

Here's a group pic of the clutch, just after they all shed. I'm sure you can see the super bright one right away, and why I picked it instead of any of the others.


The clutch the other one was from was just two viable eggs, and the one was severely kinked, and died soon after climbing out the egg. The other one didn't absorb its yolk, and I had to tie and sever the umbilical, and it was a slow starter too.

Nikkubus, thanks for that. Unfortunately, all the satin pics I saw on the link, and on the net look way different to this little bug. The satin seems to have more rounded alien heads than these chunky sqaure-ish blocks. But then again, I am not even at intermediate yet with defining morphs...

Was overcast here today, so I took some rather washed out pics of the parents, and of the two in question again. So, excuse the poor colors, but these new pics are more for showing the pattern than colors. The above pics, in the first post, show their true colors in sunlight (no flash).

Firstly, the parents:

Spider, mother of the super bright one



Spider, mother of the 2nd one



Enchi, possible father



Pastel ph pied, possible father (excuse the water, he was soaking)



And poor photos, showing the young 'uns patterns more clearly

Super bright



The "other" one

[nikkubus]

One thing I notice is the Pastel ph Pied and the 2nd odd OS have similar belly appearance, though het Pied could be doing that. If the clutch of that one only had two eggs and had problems, perhaps something went wonky in development and Spider indeed was trying to form but couldn't fully for some reason. I really don't know what could be going on morph wise to cause that, though the Spider mother of that OS does have exceptionally large blocks of side pattern, so perhaps it's just a morph of some kind. In some ways it has the appearance of a black back morph on the rear half, but generally those morphs all shrink side pattern, not expand it. It also resembles Blade slightly, but Blade does a really good job of cleaning out the eyes in the side pattern.

[Mehelya]

@nikkubus, it would be quite interesting to see how the OS passes it's genes and pattern on, particularly if it was trying to be a spider, and got it wrong. Or at least, to figure out if the weirdness came from the spider, or the father (whichever that might be)... I'll have to take those genes you mentioned, and run them through WOB or MM with spider added, and see how they compare to all her progeny over the last two seasons.

Here are two pics of the deformed sibling. It didn't stand a chance...

Straight out the egg, showing the major spinal kinks all over.


It passed a short while later, which was for the best, because I feel horrible having to kill anything, no matter how badly deformed...

Showing more of the body pattern


Bit of a conundrum all on it's own. If I can at least figure out which parent (mother or father) might have had a hand in the weirdness, I could retry the breeding, next season (they're having an off season this year), and see if I get similar results.

For interest sake, here are siblings (same mother as these two weirdos, enchi above was the sire) from the previous year's breeding, I'm now wondering if they're showing any weirdness to them too, that I've missed with my amateur eyes? All these pics are post first shed.

Stinger


Spider


Stinger (kept this male back because of the very low black coloration)


Spider


Spider


Spider (kept this girl back because of the striping on the neck)


Normal


Enchi (kept this girl back too, because of her wicked pattern)


So, I don't know if anyone can see anything weird on the previous year's babies? If so, that would mean mom is carrying something other than just spider, which bears investigation.

[nikkubus]

The kinked sibling has an incredibly blocky pattern as well with side pattern being pushed together, it's just less drastic and doesn't have as much black on the dorsal. Interesting. I think it's worth seeing if it passes down from the surviving OS.

The holdback Spider girl looks a lot brighter than the others, but perhaps there is a difference in lighting between pics? Very minimal side pattern on her too. How has she held onto her color?

Nothing glaringly obvious but there might be something going on there.

[Mehelya]

I see what you mean with the side patterns, almost as if they're trying to expand in all directions as much as possible, and swallow the darker background.

The lighting on the pics was exactly the same for all of them. Overhead lamp, and I may have used the flash as well, but the whole clutch was under the same conditions for the pics.

Here are both sides of that hold back spider, under sunlight, no flash.



The one side has seriously reduced background coloration showing through, as if the pattern was trying to expand and obliterate/take over all of the background color, more so than what the spider gene itself does. And I dare say, that while her cream/brown colors have dulled a bit over the last year, there seems to be a bright, burnt orange showing through the dulling/darkening cream/brown? I also kept this spider back, because there seems to be a white coloration trying to show through along the spine, more so on some of the others that I didn't keep back, but the mother, and this one have it as well, although I'm not sure if that is just a common thing with some spiders?

Looking at the mother, based on what you said about her also having large blocks, I wonder if the mother hasn't got something going on as well, which has subtly been showing through in the young all this time, but only now with this weird OS hitting just the right odds, it's become noticeable?

Pity that all these (mother, spider and OS) are females, and the only related male is the stinger bee, which I also kept back because of the low amount of background color, but I'm loath to do a stinger x spider pairing, but maybe stinger x OS might be worthwhile?

I've asked the chap who I got the mother from if he can find out what it's lineage is, seeing as he got it as an adult, and then I took it over when he was removing spiders from his gene pool. But, I'm not holding my breathe for any answers to that Q.

[nikkubus]

Spider can be so variable, it could just be the right subtle genes combining in a certain way, but I bet if it's something you really like, you could work on some line breeding and make something a lot more obvious and predictable in your line.

I'd avoid Stinger x Spider as well, but I'd probably just breed the Spider to her own male non-Spider OS at some stage with higher likelihood of picking up those patterns. Maybe there is a particular morph male that combined with her might draw it out even more or help understand what is going on better.

[Mehelya]

The chunky, oversized, square patterning is nice, especially with the extremely dark background. I am very keen to see what it produces when it does. The same with the bright one.

I've got a host of projects lined up with some ranched imports (in about 2 to 3 year's time), and if anything proves from them, maybe there'll be something worth throwing at these two to see what results I can get. They should be old enough by then. I've got a pewter het pied male that could also be a candidate once these two girls are old enough, if all else fails.

Nikkubus, thank you for an informative discussion. I have learned much.