Dumeril's feeding problems - round two

[Caitlin]

Recap: In fall of 2020 I posted here for advice about getting one of my young Dumeril's Boas to eat. At the time, I was successful but that victory has dissolved and now I have a situation I can't seem to correct.

I'll provide a lot of detail just to hopefully save some of you from offering advice I've already tried!

Gyre was born in August of 2020 and I have had him since he was seven weeks old. Before coming to me he was kept in a large rack in the same tub with his siblings and was eating a rat pinky every seven days. I initially kept him in a tub in order to replicate the environment he was used to. He started eating for me about eight weeks after I got him once I offered him a quail chick, and after that was tong feeding weekly on either rats or quail. Because his eating patterns never felt strongly established to me - sometimes I had to drop feed rather than tong feed him - I kept handling to an absolute minimum, and only handled him briefly when I did a complete substrate change about once a month.

In March 2021 I moved him into a 30x15x15 PVC enclosure with a basking shelf. The enclosure is heated with an RHP and is in a quiet room. Warm temps are 85F, with a gradient that drops to 75F. Humidity is about 50%, and he has a humidity hide that he uses regularly but not frequently. Substrate is coco husk with a deep layer of leaf litter.

He seemed to adjust nicely to this - he kept eating on the weekly schedule, and soon had a routine in the enclosure that left me thinking he was comfortable. He'd spend a few days buried under the leaf litter, a few days hanging out in or on top of one of his two cork rounds, and usually spent most or all of one to two days a week stretched out on the basking shelf.

In July 2021 he started refusing rodents, so I kept him on quail. He'd gotten big enough to be bumped up from day old quail chicks to week old quail chicks, so I offered him one in August 2021 which he eagerly took off the tongs. But somehow one of the wings spread out in a way that he couldn't swallow, so he spit it out and refused to try again. He refused every subsequent offer of week-old quail even after I removed the wings. He continued to refuse any rodents.

Ever since the wing incident in August 2021 the ONLY thing this snake will eat is day-old quail; he'll take 2-3 of these at a time. Obviously this isn't a good meal for a Boa that is almost two years old, so rather than stick with a normal feeding schedule for a two-year-old I have continued to feed him weekly. He's small - just under 30" long. He's maintained what appears to be good body condition. He has good sheds and normal bowel movements and urates, and normal pee for a Dum - Dums pee a LOT. But I am really worried about him, as day-old quail are not a sustainable diet.

* I feed him well after dark in a dim room and if he doesn't immediately take the food off tongs I leave it with him overnight. He always eats either off the tongs or after being drop fed.
* I warm the quail before offering and don't dance it around too much (Dumeril's are shy about that).
* In an effort to get more nutrients into him I have tried offering small mice or rat pups. He refuses these.
* I have warmed the rodents, I have tried thawing them in the same bag with quail, chopping up quail and smearing the rodents with quail goo; I have tried quail and chick scent from Reptilinks. None of this works - he will NOT take rodents so far. I have no idea why he started refusing them in the first place.
* He wants to eat. Lately he's even striking as soon as he sees the tongs. He is clearly interested in the week-old quail and will lift his head, tongue flick them, etc. but won't take them. If I offer a day old quail instead, he'll take that immediately.

I am losing my mind here. I always felt I had a bit of a talent for getting reluctant snakes to eat, but this guy has apparently decided he wants to prove me wrong. I'm just at a loss. He seems OK but he can't eat day old quail forever, and I really worry that he will end up malnourished or that he'll just waste away.

I'm going to try a live rodent feeder this week and will update with results, but would far prefer to feed F/T. I'd very much appreciate any suggestions here. My other Dumeril's will eat anything he can fit in his mouth.

[Homebody]

I suggest you offer an appropriately sized f/t rat weekly until he takes it.

[Bogertophis]

First, I've never kept or known a Dumerils boa, though I've often admired & thought about having one- they're beautiful snakes. His set-up, from my understanding of Dumerils care, sounds perfect, & I can't see where you've made any mistakes with feeding, etc. I think you just have a very quirky snake, and if it will make you feel any better, I'll tell you about one I have- spoiler alert, I've concluded mine is a few donuts short of a dozen. Considering the large number of snakes I've kept over many years, never having seen any other snake like her, I suppose that's just the way the odds go- it was bound to happen. Like you, I've always been very successful getting snakes to eat what they're supposed to eat, but this one is "special".

Mine is a rat snake, approximately 3 years old this summer- that hatched from an egg that "shouldn't have been viable"- Background: I have (2.2) 14-15 year old c/b adult Florida* rat snakes that I got when they were about a year-a year & a half old. (*FL mix: yellow x gulf hammock x Everglades- I think? I took these in from a guy unable to keep them- he'd been breeding & crossing them some.) I don't think he ever put these together, but obviously I cannot be sure of that- they were awfully young if he did.

Since the 2.2 snakes have been mine, they've never been together, never bred, yet every year since they matured, the 2 adult females lay big double-clutches of eggs that "should be infertile". Until 3 years ago, I just tossed the eggs, but I'd always noticed that many appeared as viable eggs, & 3 years ago, I had the bright idea of incubating the eggs that looked "good". Three of them hatched, adding 3 more rat snakes to my household, & each is unique. The "special" one I'm referring to here is named Milagro- she is about 4' long, looks like a yellow rat snake (yellow with dark stripes- Pantherophis alleghaniensis, commonly called the eastern rat snake), but to this day she will ONLY eat multiple live fuzzy mice, preferably in an empty Kleenex box.

I've got tons of experience with rat snakes, many kinds, & I've never seen one that was this daffy about food- they're generally ravenous consumers of pre-killed (-any which way!) rodents, but not this one. I won't bore you with the details of things I've tried- including "tough love" (waiting for her hunger to kick in so she'd accept appropriate prey) but so far, no go. She's done some long fasts with no apparent issues, but she wants only what she wants & that's final- She won't eat fresh-killed of any size. Not a normal rat snake, that's for sure. (And btw, I don't DARE give her larger mice- she approaches everything slowly, cautiously- never with speed. But the good thing is that so far, she's not starving.)

I've concluded that her brain is just wired a bit different. And maybe yours is "special" too? If it can happen in humans, I'm sure can happen with other creatures too- some may just never be "normal"? In the wild, they'd not survive, but because they have us caring for them & stressing over them, they do. Probably not the answer you're looking for, but it's just my best guess for now- if I think of anything else, I'll be sure to mention- & I'll continue to hope that someone with Dumeril's expertise will show up with a better answer for you & some way for you to fix yours.

[Caitlin]

lol! Your experience with quirky little Milagro is comforting. I have an adult Jungle Carpet Python who will only take mice, though thankfully he is willing to take large ones. And yeah, if it turns out that the only way I can get this guy to eat is by feeding him piles of day-old quail, that is by gods what I will do. Or if he'll take live rodents, I'll just feed live or fresh killed or whatever.

I won't try the 'tough love' approach with this snake of just starving him until he caves and takes food. I'm not crazy about that method, though I have used it successfully on a couple of occasions when I felt that the snake involved was in sufficiently good condition to be able to handle an extended fast with no harm. But my instincts tell me that this snake would let himself starve and/or would let himself get to a point where he'd be vulnerable to opportunistic illness. I am just not willing to do that.

I've thought about whether or not he would survive in the wild. I suspect he would, as he has a prey drive and he'd be in an environment with live prey items of types his species has evolved to prefer rather than sitting in a PVC box with me shoving thawed quail at him. But all we can do is the best we can with them.

In a different group I got an interesting suggestion from a Colubrid importer who has had to persuade wild snakes to eat who just want exotic stuff like wild doves. He uses natural collagen-based sausage casings to tie a food item like a reptilink or a rodent to a piece of whatever the preferred food is, and gets the snake to take both that way.

I have some quail and quail/rabbit reptilinks here so I think I will try that with a reptilink attached to a day old quail. I should also be able to inject some Carnivore Care into the reptilink for a bit of an additional nutritional boost. Between that and trying live or fresh-killed I do have some hope.

[Homebody]

In a different group I got an interesting suggestion from a Colubrid importer who has had to persuade wild snakes to eat who just want exotic stuff like wild doves. He uses natural collagen-based sausage casings to tie a food item like a reptilink or a rodent to a piece of whatever the preferred food is, and gets the snake to take both that way.

Wow! That's so clever. It sounds foolproof.

[Bogertophis]

lol! Your experience with quirky little Milagro is comforting. I have an adult Jungle Carpet Python who will only take mice, though thankfully he is willing to take large ones. And yeah, if it turns out that the only way I can get this guy to eat is by feeding him piles of day-old quail, that is by gods what I will do. Or if he'll take live rodents, I'll just feed live or fresh killed or whatever.

I won't try the 'tough love' approach with this snake of just starving him until he caves and takes food. I'm not crazy about that method, though I have used it successfully on a couple of occasions when I felt that the snake involved was in sufficiently good condition to be able to handle an extended fast with no harm. But my instincts tell me that this snake would let himself starve and/or would let himself get to a point where he'd be vulnerable to opportunistic illness. I am just not willing to do that.

I've thought about whether or not he would survive in the wild. I suspect he would, as he has a prey drive and he'd be in an environment with live prey items of types his species has evolved to prefer rather than sitting in a PVC box with me shoving thawed quail at him. But all we can do is the best we can with them.

In a different group I got an interesting suggestion from a Colubrid importer who has had to persuade wild snakes to eat who just want exotic stuff like wild doves. He uses natural collagen-based sausage casings to tie a food item like a reptilink or a rodent to a piece of whatever the preferred food is, and gets the snake to take both that way.

I have some quail and quail/rabbit reptilinks here so I think I will try that with a reptilink attached to a day old quail. I should also be able to inject some Carnivore Care into the reptilink for a bit of an additional nutritional boost. Between that and trying live or fresh-killed I do have some hope.

Re "tough love": Milagro was in no danger- actually she semi-brumated & never looked even slightly thin. I'm not seeing yours, & I agree, if yours is thin, I wouldn't do that either.

Your day old quail could perhaps be attached to small rodents (increasing size if it works) using dissolvable sutures? Or sausage casings- sure, try it, why not? Or injecting the quail with nutritious additions. I've also tried taking my weirdo outside to see if some natural sunshine would perk up her appetite- it did, but only for live fuzzies.

It may be that in the wild, both of these snakes would act more normal- like when we go camping & are so hungry that even Dinty Moore canned stew tastes awesome, lol. (But I doubt it- they wouldn't last that long in the wild...)


Oh, by the way, one of Milagro's siblings (Mirikel) has enough appetite & food aggression for the BOTH of them! She happily takes dead mice from tongs, but she grabs them HARD, then rolls and thrashes all around her cage with them for several minutes, obliviously crashing into things as if wrestling the Loch Ness MONSTER- She takes no chances... She's not a beginner snake, but I adore her- & have gotten her to mellow out when I handle her- but at first she often goes thru some panic thrashing before settling down. She's hyper-sensitive to touch- but also very curious & watches me when she's in her tank & I'm sitting nearby- not as if she's watching prey- but just curious, as if trying to figure out "life". Silly sneks.

[GoingPostal]

Have you ever tried live with him? I know you'd prefer not to but sometimes a prey animal moving around is really what is needed to get some snakes interested. My fussy eater was my male borneo, after five ish years I think (knock on wood) he's finally accepted f/t rats as food and eagerly strikes and feeds. But no amount of dancing or heating or different prey options really helped over the years and if I put a live rodent in it was taken instantly every time. Are you pre scenting the room with feeder beforehand for awhile so he's good and revved up?

[Caitlin]

Have you ever tried live with him? I know you'd prefer not to but sometimes a prey animal moving around is really what is needed to get some snakes interested. My fussy eater was my male borneo, after five ish years I think (knock on wood) he's finally accepted f/t rats as food and eagerly strikes and feeds. But no amount of dancing or heating or different prey options really helped over the years and if I put a live rodent in it was taken instantly every time. Are you pre scenting the room with feeder beforehand for awhile so he's good and revved up?

I planned to try live with him this weekend - and I appreciate your feedback; I was thinking that I'd have to feed live. When I've had to do that in the past the snake usually ended up accepting F/T soon after but they just needed the live prey to get them started. And yes, whenever I feed I thaw the rodents/birds in the snake room, plus I use a hair dryer to really spread the scent around.

BUT! The trick shared by the Colubrid importer worked!! I used collagen casing to tie a quail reptilink to the body of a day-old quail and he ate that. I also injected the reptilink with some Carnivore Care for a nutrient boost. I won't rest easy until he has taken a few meals like this, but for now I am just hugely relieved that he actually got some calories in him. Next feeding I will try two quail + reptilinks - that should be a very good meal. If he starts refusing that, I will definitely go to live.

[bcr229]

How often are you feeding? Yours is almost two so he can go 2-3 weeks between meals.

[Caitlin]

How often are you feeding? Yours is almost two so he can go 2-3 weeks between meals.

That's been part of the struggle. While the feeding schedule you mention is what I use with my Tarahumaras and my other Dumeril's, this little guy has not been eating normal meals. At least from my perspective, one or two day-old quail chicks are hardly a meal when the other Dum who is just a few days different in hatch date is eating rodents or quail that are many times larger and has grown at a normal (slow) rate, while this snake has remained pretty small. His body condition is OK but not ideal.

Once it became clear that he was refusing everything other than day-old quail I started feeding him weekly just to get some calories into him. Occasionally I would wait 2-3 weeks and then offer a week old quail or a rat pup in the hope that he'd go ahead and take them, but he'd turn away from them.

If I can get him to take the reptilinks a couple more times, I will go back to a normal Boa feeding schedule.

I mean, feel free to tell me if I seem to be messing up here; I won't be defensive about it. This has been a tough situation and I am constantly second-guessing myself.