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Thread: Batman question

  1. #1
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    Batman question

    My husband and I are fairly new to breeding although we've owned many types of snakes for years. We have a few of the more popular morphs but are thinking of trying a more high end project. I've tried doing some research and I do know what genes are involved in making a batman, but how exactly do you breed for batman?? We are looking to purchase several new balls soon. Hope that makes sense.

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    BPnet Veteran Erie_herps's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that a batman is a spotnose, leopard, clown. If I'm wrong substitute out a morph for whatever morph it actually is.
    If you want to produce a batman there are lots of options. Both snakes need to be het clown or clown. If they are both hets 25% of the babies will be clown. If one is visual and one is het 50% will be clown. If they are both visual clowns then all of the babies will be clown. If you want the best chances of getting a batman having at least one visual parent will help.
    To get spotnose and leopard they just need to be present in the parents. If you want lots of batmans you'll get the most with super spotnose x super leopard. You could also have one parent with spotnose and the other with leopard. But, only 25% of the babies will have spotnose and leopard.
    If you want to produce the most/get the best chance of batmans you would want to have a super leopard clown x super spotnose clown, then all of the babies will be batmans. This is a bit more expensive so if you want a less expensive option you could have one or both parents be heterozygous for a trait (for example: super leopard het clown x super spotnose clown, or super leopard clown x spotnose clown). This will result in 50% of the babies being batmans.
    Essentially to get the most batmans in a clutch you want leopard in one parent, spotnose in another, and clown in both. Having them all be homozygous will result in all batmans. Having any of the traits be heterozygous will cut the number of batmans/chance of a batman in half. If they are all homozygous they will all be batman, if there is one heterozygous and all the others are homozygous 50% will be batman, if there are 2 heterozygous traits 25% will be batman, and so on.

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    Super spotnose has been linked to neruo issues. I would not recommend that.

    Otherwise, here's the post I was typing as Erie was posting:

    Definitely look up some youtube vids on Ball python genetics! That will help you out a lot in the long run.

    The important parts for the Batman break down to this:
    Recessive: Clown
    Dominant: Leopard
    Co-Dominant: Spotnose

    From there, the most important note is the recessive.
    For the recessive to be passed on, both parents need to be carrying that gene. This is either a visual clown or het for clown.
    Ideally a clown to clown will get you 100% clown babies. A het will pass the gene on 50% of the time so the 2nd best is clown to het clown and you will end up with a 50/50 mix of het clowns and visual clowns.
    A het to het breeding is least ideal as you have a 25% chance to have a normal baby, 25% chance at a visual clown and 50% hets you cannot tell from the normal.

    The leopard and the Spotnose will be passed down 50% of the time to the offspring regardless of if the other snake carries it.
    A SUPER leopard (a snake carrying 2 copies of the leopard gene) will pass a single leopard gene to every offspring.

    So as long as both parents are carrying the clown gene, it doesn't matter which parent is carrying the leopard or spotnose. So if it's cheaper for you to find a het clown carrying spotnose, breed it to a leopard clown.
    This is just a quick little breakdown. Hopefully another person better with genes may also be able to help with questions or explanations soon~
    Last edited by Armiyana; 02-17-2022 at 06:15 PM.

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    Re: Batman question

    Quote Originally Posted by Armiyana View Post
    Super spotnose has been linked to neruo issues. I would not recommend that.
    I totally forgot about that, good catch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Armiyana View Post
    The important parts for the Batman break down to this:
    Recessive: Clown
    Dominant: Leopard
    Co-Dominant: Spotnose
    I also forgot that leopard was dominant. That makes it difficult to find a super leopard. Don't you mean that spotnose is incomplete dominant? There aren't any co-dominant ball python morphs.
    With that said a good pairing would be a leopard clown x spotnose clown. That will give you 25% batmans. If one of them is only het clown then there is a 12.5% chance per egg of getting a batman. To increase chances you could pair a leopard clown to a spotnose leopard clown. Then 37.5% of the babies will be batman.
    Last edited by Erie_herps; 02-17-2022 at 07:15 PM.

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    Re: Batman question

    Quote Originally Posted by Erie_herps View Post
    Don't you mean that spotnose is incomplete dominant? There aren't any co-dominant ball python morphs.
    To be fair, I was listing them according to what World Of Ball Pythons has the genetics listed as. I'm honestly not as brushed up on spotnose as I could be. It's not a gene I looked into past the possible downsides and not in my breeding plans currently. Also, I don't know if super leopard is a fluke or not just that Kinova and Morph market seem to think so? *shrug* correct me if I'm wrong. But they seem to think it can which is why I mentioned it.

    From what I remember hearing, most incomplete dominants are listed as co-dominants because of how they act in ball python genetics. I'm honestly not 100% clear on it myself. It just seems like things are labeled that way to keep it easier for the general masses (like myself) when it drives actual genetics buffs insane.
    I just know how the genetics work as far as certain complexes and such pass on or work as allelic with one another. Like oh boy does cryptic throw a weird wrench into clown things.... and the same with male makers and female makers on Coral Glows/bananas.
    Last edited by Armiyana; 02-17-2022 at 08:46 PM.

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    correction: It's not necessarily that it's a fluke or not, but that they just tend to look like a regular leopard unless you have other genes involved. It may not really be as hard to hit and just hard to tell without breeding because of that dominance

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    Re: Batman question

    Quote Originally Posted by Armiyana View Post
    To be fair, I was listing them according to what World Of Ball Pythons has the genetics listed as. I'm honestly not as brushed up on spotnose as I could be. It's not a gene I looked into past the possible downsides and not in my breeding plans currently. Also, I don't know if super leopard is a fluke or not just that Kinova and Morph market seem to think so? *shrug* correct me if I'm wrong. But they seem to think it can which is why I mentioned it.

    From what I remember hearing, most incomplete dominants are listed as co-dominants because of how they act in ball python genetics. I'm honestly not 100% clear on it myself. It just seems like things are labeled that way to keep it easier for the general masses (like myself) when it drives actual genetics buffs insane.
    I just know how the genetics work as far as certain complexes and such pass on or work as allelic with one another. Like oh boy does cryptic throw a weird wrench into clown things.... and the same with male makers and female makers on Coral Glows/bananas.
    Super leopard is like super pinstripe, it exists but it doesn't look any different than the heterozygous form. A leopard x leopard would result in 25% super leopards but you would never know that they're supers without test breeding. It's similar to pos hets except it's pos supers. I personally don't really understand codominance but most geneticists say that all ball python morphs are incomplete dominant so I go with that. It took me a while to fully understand all of the allelic and sex-linked morphs but I think I have most of it figured out, but there are still some things I'm trying to learn.
    Last edited by Erie_herps; 02-17-2022 at 09:03 PM.

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    I'd get a male Clown + Leopard or Spotnose (or even a male Batman) and get a female het Clown with the one the male doesn't have. If you want to increase your odds of hitting it, I'd get two of the same females rather than try and get supers because of the huge price difference, and the ones you don't hit should still sell pretty well being bare minimum normal het clown and the rest having good pieces to make Batmans for someone else. If you could find a female that has het Clown plus one of those genes and also has YB, Black Pastel, Red Stripe or related genes to those, you could work towards Pompeii or Pompeii-like ones, which are also very high in demand GHI or Mahogany make great subs for Black Pastel, any of the YB complex would work well like Asphalt, Gravel, Specter. Red Stripe is kind of the only one in there that doesn't have a great substitute.
    7.22 BP 1.4 corn 1.1 SD retic 0.1 hognose

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    Re: Batman question

    Thank you all for the clarification Erie-herps, Armiyana, and nikkubus. I definitely needed all of that explanations as well.
    Last edited by Albert Clark; 02-17-2022 at 11:28 PM.
    Stay in peace and not pieces.

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    Re: Batman question

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkubus View Post
    I'd get a male Clown + Leopard or Spotnose (or even a male Batman) and get a female het Clown with the one the male doesn't have. If you want to increase your odds of hitting it, I'd get two of the same females rather than try and get supers because of the huge price difference, and the ones you don't hit should still sell pretty well being bare minimum normal het clown and the rest having good pieces to make Batmans for someone else. If you could find a female that has het Clown plus one of those genes and also has YB, Black Pastel, Red Stripe or related genes to those, you could work towards Pompeii or Pompeii-like ones, which are also very high in demand GHI or Mahogany make great subs for Black Pastel, any of the YB complex would work well like Asphalt, Gravel, Specter. Red Stripe is kind of the only one in there that doesn't have a great substitute.
    I've seen the pompeii! Amazing snakes! But what are all the genes involved?

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