Confused by what certain morphs are called

[Neko_snake]

I was looking at BP's on MM and I'm trying to figure out the naming sequence for some morphs. Like I know piebald is a recessive more so you need 2 copies of the gene or the animal is het and not a visual. But I don't understand why some morphs like when you add say champagne they look like a visual but are called 100% het piebald. So my question is why is what looks like a champagne piebald called a champagne 100% het piebald?

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[Armiyana]

Champagne is known for having 'ringers' on the tail that look like the white markings on some piebalds. So even though it has the white markings, it can still just be a het.
It will be called het pied unless you can prove without a doubt it is piebald. In the case of 100% hets, one parent was most likely a visual pied so therefore all offspring will be het for pied.

[nikkubus]

There are morphs that are normally recessive that happen to show up partially visual as het in certain combos. Piebald seems to have that with a few different things, Champagne being one, another off the top of my head is Sandblast. Some can look like ringers, and some you would swear were full blown Piebald if you didn't know any better.

[Neko_snake]

There are morphs that are normally recessive that happen to show up partially visual as het in certain combos. Piebald seems to have that with a few different things, Champagne being one, another off the top of my head is Sandblast. Some can look like ringers, and some you would swear were full blown Piebald if you didn't know any better.

Interesting so they only have 1 copy of the gene but express like they have 2?

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[Armiyana]

Nikkubus is right about that het pied weirdness as well. Hoping to prove out sandblast in one of my new noodles soon. @_@;;

Gonna drop this here as an example for Champagne ringer weirdness.
There is no Pied gene in this animal. This is a cinnamon Champagne.

And since we're on the subject of champagne weirdness, this is a gene you do not cross with the spider complex as it can cause deformities/neonatal death and weak hatchlings that pass soon after hatching or have lifelong severe wobble.

[Neko_snake]

Nikkubus is right about that het pied weirdness as well. Hoping to prove out sandblast in one of my new noodles soon. @_@;;

Gonna drop this here as an example for Champagne ringer weirdness.
There is no Pied gene in this animal. This is a cinnamon Champagne.

And since we're on the subject of champagne weirdness, this is a gene you do not cross with the spider complex as it can cause deformities/neonatal death and weak hatchlings that pass soon after hatching or have lifelong severe wobble.

That's so weird/interesting that champagne does that. Beautiful snake though. It's confusing to me that one done in the right way can easily look like a totally different gene. And yeah I heard something about champagne maybe also having a wobble. Definitely not genes you want to mix if possible. I'm trying to stay away from spiders for that reason, not that a slight wobble is bad but I don't feel like I have the experience to take care of a snake with a severe wobble. I'll probably do the same thing with champagne too. But I'm definitely curious about all the different genes and how they work/mix.

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[nikkubus]

Interesting so they only have 1 copy of the gene but express like they have 2?

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It's variable just how much white ends up showing, usually less that if they had 2 pied genes in a non-combo but piebald is already so variable as it is. Here are a couple examples of Urban Camo with only one pied gene.

[Neko_snake]

It's variable just how much white ends up showing, usually less that if they had 2 pied genes in a non-combo but piebald is already so variable as it is. Here are a couple examples of Urban Camo with only one pied gene.

So is my understanding that they would typically have more white if they had 2 pied genes compared to them with 1? I thought pied was kinda random with how much white actually shows in the normal visuals. Or is my understanding of that incorrect?

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[Armiyana]

Pied is one of those really weird genes. It can be really hard to tell. That's why people will describe them as low or high white sometimes. It's just the percentage of white you end up with.
For some mixes, there will be no real way to tell if it has pied. Like a normal to a pied will usually have all normal looking babies that are carrying the gene.
On the ones that are het, most won't have white unless it's a very particular mix of genes. Sometimes you'll have a small flame of white on the tail as a visual cue.


For the urban camos that Nikkubus posted? A lot of the time if there are 2 pied genes, you can end up with an all white snake. That's just how the pied gene likes to play with the super cinnamon gene. A spyed/spied or white wedding, is a spider pied and another all white snake. They look like Blue or Black Eyed Lucys.
This is my personal noodle, a cinnamon pastel pied (possible sandblast) a VERY high white pied. Apparently the cinnamon gene just likes to bring up more white.
[edit] Adding in a photo of my cinnamon pastel het pied. He's most likely sandblast. But none of the white pied markers.

[Neko_snake]

Pied is one of those really weird genes. It can be really hard to tell. That's why people will describe them as low or high white sometimes. It's just the percentage of white you end up with.
For some mixes, there will be no real way to tell if it has pied. Like a normal to a pied will usually have all normal looking babies that are carrying the gene.
On the ones that are het, most won't have white unless it's a very particular mix of genes. Sometimes you'll have a small flame of white on the tail as a visual cue.


For the urban camos that Nikkubus posted? A lot of the time if there are 2 pied genes, you can end up with an all white snake. That's just how the pied gene likes to play with the super cinnamon gene. A spyed/spied or white wedding, is a spider pied and another all white snake. They look like Blue or Black Eyed Lucys.
This is my personal noodle, a cinnamon pastel pied (possible sandblast) a VERY high white pied. Apparently the cinnamon gene just likes to bring up more white.
[edit] Adding in a photo of my cinnamon pastel het pied. He's most likely sandblast. But none of the white pied markers.

Ah that makes sense. So 1 pied gene typically equals an urban camo but 2 would equal an all white snake. And for both that's using the super cinnamon gene?

With the example of your snake I'm getting a little confused but maybe that's because I'm unfamiliar with the sandblast gene. So he's got 1 gene for pied, 1 gene for cinnamon, and 1 gene for pastel but he could also have the sandblast gene? Is that the question with him? Also I'd assume the only way to prove he has the sandblast gene is to breed him/see if any of his babies look like sandblasts?

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