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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    "Black rat snake" identification troubles

    One of, in fact probably my first experience with a snake as a child was a huge ornery black rat snake that showed up several times around the house I used to live in growing up at the southwestern tip of Ohio that was literally at the boarder of Indiana (I'm not exaggerating you drove 2 minutes and you crossed states). For some time now I've been trying to figure out just what exactly it was from a species standpoint, since "black rat snake" gives several leads.

    Even when looking at official sources I'm getting multiple conflicting names. Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta/Pantherophis obsoletus (pretty sure those two names are the same thing), Pantherophis spiloides and Pantherophis alleghaniensis. I've even looked around on Morph Market but that hasn't been of much help either since, as I also learned, pretty much any of these snakes look drastically different as neonates/juveniles than as adults. They're more black/gray and white checkered that fades into a more uniform black with adulthood (though the original pattern can still be faintly visible) with a non-solid white underside. That and the fact that most listings are, well, morphs and not the wild type coloration doesn't help either.

    Reconstructing what I could from memory, this is what the snake in question looked like to give a visual aid, which is credited as Pantherophis alleghaniensis.

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    Homebody (11-30-2021)

  3. #2
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Helps to look at range maps for the state you live in & those surrounding you. And keep in mind that in overlapping areas, they could certainly interbreed.

    As for the names Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta & Pantherophis obsoletus , Elaphe was the original name, later re-classified officially to Pantherophis.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 11-30-2021 at 02:51 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #3
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    If you call your state fish & game office, they can also probably help you. In practical terms though, there's not much difference in them, either as pets or as defensive wild snakes- why are you asking? I've kept or keep many if not most of the Elaphe/Pantherophis group- c/b make great pets & stay a manageable size. They're curious & easy to feed & care for. The wild ones deserve respect.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
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  6. #4
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    It was more of "moment of curiosity that sends you down a deep rabbit hole" kind of thing than anything else. As has been explained before I'm not "on the market" for new snakes at this time (as much as I continue to needlessly research and look at them while constantly having to tell myself no lol), was just befuddled with all the nomenclature as to exactly what kind of snake I encountered all those years ago.

    The white-sided morph does admittedly tickle my fancy, but if I were to get a rat snake you know what type I would prefer to aim for.

  7. #5
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    When I first got into snakes, & for many many years thereafter, I did a lot of looking & longing too- I really do understand. And IMO, the price of a snake doesn't determine how good of a pet it is- not one little bit. The price reflects breeders making money on the rarity of certain snakes- nothing more. The fun thing about many rat snakes (including corn snakes) is watching them change from their drab hatchling colors into colorful adults. I love their personalities too. Ever see a bright orange Everglades rat snake? They start off as beige with brownish blotches- nothing like what they turn into. But completely natural, as nature made, right down to their yellow chins & orange eyes. The white-sided black rat snakes don't do much for me- I like the all-black ones better, but we can't all like the same things. I used to keep & breed amelanistic black rat snakes- they ranged from all-pale peach to pale peach with red-orange patterns- gorgeous! If you end up spending a small fortune on your "dream snake" some day, I hope you enjoy it as much as you think you will. Only time will tell.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  9. #6
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: "Black rat snake" identification troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Snagrio View Post
    One of, in fact probably my first experience with a snake as a child was a huge ornery black rat snake that showed up several times around the house I used to live in growing up...
    Keep in mind that to that snake, YOU were the SCARY one!

    At my previous home, my dog was barking up a storm in the back yard & my neighbors were yelling for me to come out- so what was the big "emergency"? An adult black rat snake was sitting at the base of one of my large trees, & was coiling & lunging to scare off my 'too-interested' dog. You should have SEEN the look on my neighbor's faces when I put my dog into the house, & returned to just calmly pick up the "big scary "- I thought they were going to faint? They'd been offering me a shovel to kill it, by the way.

    Snakes know by how you touch them whether you're a harmless pal or an enemy-predator. Not every rat snake is bluffing, but I had fun cuddling that snake & creeping out the snake-hating neighbors. What a disappointment too, it never tried to bite me! They looked at me as if I'd just pulled a 5' rabbit out of my shoe & waltzed around the yard with it. I did my best to educate them, but I don't think it took.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 11-30-2021 at 07:57 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
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  10. #7
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    To go a little more in depth for your original taxonomy question, as Bogertophis said most North American rat snakes used to be under the species Elaphe obsoleta with various subspecies for black rat snakes (Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta), yellow rat snakes (Elaphe obsoleta quadrivittata), everglades (Elaphe obsoleta rosalleni), etc.
    Then, with new DNA evidence proving North American rat snakes to be genetically distinct from old world rat snakes (also in the Elaphe genus), the genus name for NA rat snakes switched from Elaphe to Pantherophis.

    The newest and biggest change/discovery, made a few years ago, scraps all those subspecies based on phenotype, and instead identifies only three genetically distinct NA rat snake species. The genetic differences align with three different ranges, so as of right now we have the Eastern rat snake (Pantherophis alleghaniensis), the midland rat snake (Pantherophis spiloides), and the Western rat snake (Pantherophis obsoletus).

    It's important to remember that these species are NOT based on phenotype, so within the midland rat snake species you might find one snake that looks like what was called a "gray rat snake" and another snake that looks like what was called a "black rat snake," but they are the same species. Conversely, you could have two snakes that look like a "black rat snake," but, depending on where they were found, it's entirely possible that one is a Western rat snake and the other is a midland rat snake.
    Based on location, your snake was probably a midland rat snake (also sometimes called the gray rat snake even though it's not based on phenotype), scientific name Pantherophis spiloides.

    All that said, the hobby very much still operates under the common names of the initial subspecies, and that probably won't change any time soon. I hope this was interesting and not too confusing--there are definitely more resources out there if you want to learn more.
    0.1 Speckled Kingsnake

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  12. #8
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    There's a few other North American rat snakes (from the southwest) though, that to my knowledge, are NOT included in those categories: Trans Pecos (Bogertophis subocularis) & Baird's (Pantherophis bairdii) & the Green rat snakes (Senticolis triaspis) in Arizona. And corn snakes! (Pantherophis guttatus) No wonder people stick to the old names.


    BTW, I'm glad you dove into that "tangle", aurum. I just didn't want to, lol.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 11-30-2021 at 10:20 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  14. #9
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    Re: "Black rat snake" identification troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Keep in mind that to that snake, YOU were the SCARY one!
    I was like, 5 at the time so it will forever be the "angry snake" to me.

  15. #10
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: "Black rat snake" identification troubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Snagrio View Post
    I was like, 5 at the time so it will forever be the "angry snake" to me.
    For sure, lol. Anyway, it worked- you didn't mess with it.

    I wonder if snakes hibernate together so they can swap stories about all the humans they scared off?
    (I know, I know, I read too many Far Side cartoons.)
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 12-01-2021 at 12:22 AM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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