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  1. #11
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by 303_enfield View Post
    It’s called hoarding. I look at it this way. If a flood is coming can I take all the dogs, snakes an kids with me? If the answer is no, time for a bigger truck!

    Sometimes you have to step back an just say no.

    Good luck!
    I hesitated to outright call it hoarding because the parameters of it compared to say, hoarding dogs or cats are a lot blurrier to define. It's easier and more manageable to have a dozen+ reptiles (give or take the species) than it is to house the same number of dogs/cats out of sheer logistics. Having 10 snakes won't turn your home into a wreck, but having 10 dogs more than likely will. There's also the matter of if the person in question is a breeder or pure hobbyist since the former would obviously naturally have more than average.

    Of course, there's still plenty of examples of a reptile owner who has way too many to the point of being overrun and the animals suffer for it. But they're not nearly as obvious or common a sight as, say, the crazy cat lady who's house is falling apart and floors are covered in feces.
    Last edited by Snagrio; 11-09-2021 at 04:07 PM.

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  3. #12
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by Snagrio View Post
    I hesitated to outright call it hoarding because the parameters of it compared to say, hoarding dogs or cats are a lot blurrier to define. It's easier and more manageable to have a dozen+ reptiles (give or take the species) than it is to house the same number of dogs/cats out of sheer logistics. Having 10 snakes won't turn your home into a wreck, but having 10 dogs more than likely will. There's also the matter of if the person in question is a breeder or pure hobbyist since the former would obviously naturally have more than average.

    Of course, there's still plenty of examples of a reptile owner who has way too many to the point of being overrun and the animals suffer for it. But they're not nearly as obvious or common a sight as, say, the crazy cat lady who's house is falling apart and floors are covered in feces.

    You're right- no one calls tropical fish keepers "hoarders" if they have 200 fish either. It's all relative to what you're keeping, & what the person can keep up with. Snakes are way easier to live with than too many dogs or cats. It becomes "hoarding" when any animals are not properly cared for- when their nutritional, grooming, cleaning, social or medical needs are not met. What happens with some people (no matter what they're keeping) is that at first they're keeping up just fine, but they have a financial setback, or health issues, & they fall behind yet don't get help. They meant well in the beginning & they love animals but have a big "blind spot". That's why it's so hard to pick an arbitrary number that fits all people as "THE" absolute number that's "too many". So it's up to friends & relatives to try to watch out for those situations, but often any interventions are not well-received. If worst comes to worst, it becomes neighbors & authorities that get involved.

    Sometimes it's not a pet-keeper but a business- I vaguely remember some years back- a supposedly-big name (with a good public reputation) in dealing reptiles was busted for an enormous warehouse full of sick & dying (or already dead) herps & other exotics. The guys name didn't stick with me, as I'd never heard of him, but apparently he was well-known in some circles or some states. Anyway, it was both embarrassing for the herp world & horribly sad for the animals- they were kept in filth, without heat, & many without water, etc. Everyone assumed, by the public "face" that guy put on, that he was trustworthy & legitimate. You really can't be too careful.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #13
    BPnet Veteran Hugsplox's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Most of the time when I see people over collecting in the aquarium hobby, it’s because they’re replacing dead fish without correcting whatever issue caused the fish to die. You don’t see the numbers Snag mentions, but you see many animals being affected by the practice.

    A few years back I had a guy in a fish keeping FB group I was a part of who kept bringing home discus that he was paying, for a single fish, a good amount of money. He would put them in a tank too small with inadequate filtration that hadn’t been properly cycled, and sure enough they would die. Dude kept going back to his local fish place getting more from them, at what he said were discounted prices because he was telling them they were dying at no fault of his own. Finally, the shop wised up, had him bring in a water sample, and stopped selling fish to him. His whole post was just ranting about this local shop. Fortunately for the fish, that shop took charge and said “no more” but not every shop has the morals or the ability to tell customers no. If that same guy was going to one of the big box stores to buy those fish, he could literally be walking outside and just dumping them in the parking lot, and they’d still sell him more when he went back in.

    I agree with others who said the threshold for everyone is different. For me the number of animals I have are easy for me to care for, don’t take up a ton of time, and financially are way less than what I could handle. Even knowing that, I still see snakes almost every week that I want to bring home, it’s just about self-control and knowing your limits.
    Last edited by Hugsplox; 11-10-2021 at 10:20 AM.

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  7. #14
    BPnet Senior Member Mr. Misha's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Absolutely agree with you in this regard.

    I think a lot of new keepers go overboard very quickly and unfortunately the snakes always suffer as a consequence. Being in this community over a long period of time, this trend has been around and the same story can been seen over and over.

    I also don't think most keepers grasp the reality that BPs live 20 or more years and that's probably ahould be the number one deterrent for most. Are you ready to commit quarter (or more) of your life to these reptiles?

    With thay being said, I think as a community we should do a better job to discourage new keepers from buying more and more snakes as well as breeding. These are not pringles, they're live creatures that have very long life spans, large clutches, and not enough keepers who can afford proper caging, keeping or vet care. I'm pretty sure that 95% of keepers don't know or have an exotic vet in their vicinity.

    Anyways, I'm done with my rant. But if you are a new keeper, please think twice when purchasing a new animal.

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    Last edited by Mr. Misha; 12-11-2021 at 12:35 AM.
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  9. #15
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    Man I can't tell you the number of times I've had my managers need to come over while I was working at a big box shop as the lead in the fish section. It was a mixed bag of them backing me up on my refusals to sell or just taking over to catch the fish that I refused to sell, but never calling me out on it.
    I think the worst part was leaving knowing that all the new hires would never be trained well enough to do that sort of thing because of how the company changed gears with a buyout a few years ago. Somehow the employee training on small animals became even worse. =/

    As a former vet tech.... a lot of the issue I would see is people not giving an animal its due worth. "It's just an outdoor cat" "It's just a lizard" "I can just go buy another hamster" "It's just a feeder goldfish".
    There's thankfully more of a movement now where pets are becoming more like family and getting better quality of life. But for some families it's still something like a collectible or just something you're supposed to just have. Fish, rodents and the lower end reptiles have always suffered from the idea of being replaceable pets. I've heard just as much terrible care advice from big box shops as well as smaller mom and pop shops over the years. But dedicated shop owners or breeders have been making small changes over the years.

    I do joke about how having my leopard geckos or ball pythons has been like potato chips. And it admittedly can be easy to get caught up in things. I hope not to end up having an issue where my collection suffers because of me. I've moved to keeping better feeding and weight logs now that I've moved into breeding a few and adding to my numbers. I keep my partner informed about potential choices of mine or just chatter about how an animal has been even though he can barely tell half of them apart. Little things so that I don't fall down that slope of owning without caring.
    And as Mr. Misha mentioned there's the age to take into account. The number of people who don't realize how long a goldfish can actually live.... or a ball python. I still have my first ball python. Amusingly enough, someone actually thought I had a human child because of the way I was talking about him one day. "My 20 year old", "He's being fussy again but that's just how he gets sometimes." No... I was talking about my ball python. It's one of the things I do hope more people do take into account.
    And while I do enjoy keeping and breeding, I do have to admit it has been frustrating with the number of people just jumping in and wanting to breed immediately. It's like the weird backyard dog or cat breeding trends, Someone sees how much one of the pricy breeds they want is...and decide to "make a few bucks". The number of people I'd see who would buy something like a bengal cat pair and then immediately complain about all of the natural things that breeding cats will do... or not realize how much vaccines and food and vet care or registering cost.

    Now this thread has me thinking of that one meme... "Are we the baddies?" and hoping I'm not just trying to make excuses for myself, lol.

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  11. #16
    BPnet Senior Member Mr. Misha's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Not shaming having multiple snakes at all. As you can see, I have a few myself. With that being said, their life span is so long that your life can change dramatically and it's easier to adjust to keeping a few than a lot.

    When I got my first BP i was carefree with no responsibilities. Now, I'm married with a two year old working full time and decided to go back to finish higher education. Trust me when I tell you that priorities change. When my son was an infant, I thought about downsizing but couldn't decide and ended up pulling through. Thankfully, I also have a spouse who is enjoys BPs and is willing to help (even though this is my pets).

    I want new keepers to take these things into consideration. Living situations change, employment and so on and so on.

    I am looking forward to sharing my passion with my little one and he's been at one point very interested in the BPs so I'm looking forward to grow that relationship.



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    0.1 Reg. BP Het. Albino (Faye),
    1.0 Albino BP (Henry),
    0.1 Pastave BP Het. Pied (Kira)
    1.0 Pied BP (Sam)
    1.0 Bumble Bee BP (Izzy)

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  13. #17
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Misha View Post
    Not shaming having multiple snakes at all. As you can see, I have a few myself. With that being said, their life span is so long that your life can change dramatically and it's easier to adjust to keeping a few than a lot.

    When I got my first BP i was carefree with no responsibilities. Now, I'm married with a two year old working full time and decided to go back to finish higher education. Trust me when I tell you that priorities change. When my son was an infant, I thought about downsizing but couldn't decide and ended up pulling through. Thankfully, I also have a spouse who is enjoys BPs and is willing to help (even though this is my pets).

    I want new keepers to take these things into consideration. Living situations change, employment and so on and so on.

    I am looking forward to sharing my passion with my little one and he's been at one point very interested in the BPs so I'm looking forward to grow that relationship.



    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Believe me, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. So many times I hear of pets people rehome because "their apartment doesn't allow them" or "there's a new landlord" and so on. It, scares me honestly. As someone who's really started to look around in terms of living on my own lately, that kind of horror scenario where I must choose between living somewhere or my animals pops up in my mind repeatedly. It's not going to happen anytime soon for better or worse (I looked around several nearby towns and nothing is within my budget rent-wise at this time), but it's still a worry.

    I already know some animals can't come with me, like my hens (but they're close to their final years anyway), and my giant aquarium might not be on the cards too depending on the situation just out of its sheer weight (you can't put 1400+ pounds just anywhere), but I don't think I could live with myself if I came across a situation where I ended up animalless altogether. That's not acceptable to me.

  14. #18
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by Snagrio View Post
    Believe me, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. So many times I hear of pets people rehome because "their apartment doesn't allow them" or "there's a new landlord" and so on. It, scares me honestly. As someone who's really started to look around in terms of living on my own lately, that kind of horror scenario where I must choose between living somewhere or my animals pops up in my mind repeatedly. It's not going to happen anytime soon for better or worse (I looked around several nearby towns and nothing is within my budget rent-wise at this time), but it's still a worry.

    I already know some animals can't come with me, like my hens (but they're close to their final years anyway), and my giant aquarium might not be on the cards too depending on the situation just out of its sheer weight (you can't put 1400+ pounds just anywhere), but I don't think I could live with myself if I came across a situation where I ended up animalless altogether. That's not acceptable to me.
    Just so you know, it's not only the weight of large aquariums that turns off landlords- it's the fact that if (when) they leak, they do massive damage, often to more than one unit. (Think about being in the apartment underneath a water leak!). Same for water beds. So you should probably plan on having "visitation rights" with your fish, unless you hit the lottery.

    When it comes to snakes, they're closer to being ideal pets (quiet & don't cause damage, etc.) if only people weren't so irrationally phobic about them. It takes the right landlord to accept them- & not one who's had previous tenants with snakes that escaped & were left behind.

    Honestly, I really cannot blame landlords for giving new tenants with pets the "stink-eye"- because so many have abused their agreements in the past. AND they have other tenants to think about too- so many ppl are afraid of snakes (& think they're all venomous killers because they can't begin to tell them apart), that landlords must worry about other tenants seeing a neighbor with a snake in their midst.

    I hear you though..."pet-less" isn't something I can do either. Happily, I haven't rented in "ages".
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 12-11-2021 at 08:36 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  16. #19
    BPnet Senior Member Mr. Misha's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    I hear you though..."pet-less" isn't something I can do either. Happily, I haven't rented in "ages".
    There's always a happy medium between none and too much.

    And I absolutely agree with you, I'm lucky enough to own and have a dedicated space for my little zoo. Even with that, the area where I live have constant power outages during windy seasons so I had to not only invest in a generator to power the whole house, but also upgraded my electrical panel so I am able to plug in the generator into the panel directly.
    0.1 Reg. BP Het. Albino (Faye),
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    1.0 Bumble Bee BP (Izzy)

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  18. #20
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Misha View Post
    There's always a happy medium between none and too much.

    And I absolutely agree with you, I'm lucky enough to own and have a dedicated space for my little zoo. Even with that, the area where I live have constant power outages during windy seasons so I had to not only invest in a generator to power the whole house, but also upgraded my electrical panel so I am able to plug in the generator into the panel directly.
    Every place has some challenges, it seems. I totally relate, having lived many previous years in California myself. "Santa Ana winds"! Then again, you don't have many tornado warnings or ice storms- there's always something that takes planning to keep our pets (& families) safe.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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