Picky eater thoughts

[Snow Balls]

We read that rats were better and as she got bigger she would out grow mice, so thought it would be best to try to make the switch early. Our other BP has always been on F/T rats. We are going to try the scenting and spacing out attempts. If it is better to just stick to the F/T mice (since she does eat those) instead of sticking with rats till we can get her switched to the F/T rats we can try that too.

Just a thought, maybe we should get her F/T adult mice and just store them with Jasper's frozen rats, maybe that might work to help her switch?

People have mixed reviews on whether rats are better. I’m in the club who firmly believes feeding rats compared to mice is better. If you have a Ball Python who is strictly fed mice then it will be very difficult to switch them to rats when they are older. That’s why I feed my hatchlings rats from the get go unless they refuse, then they get 3 mouse hoppers max then I switch them to rats. Also, what’s wrong with feeding her live rats at the moment? If she prefers live rats over FT rats then just feed her live. Sometimes you have to listen to your animals


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[sp0420]

Once I get them off live hoppers and eating live rat pups or pinks then every week I'll offer one f/t pup until they start taking them regularly. I've had them go several months before completing switching between live and f/t sometimes they go right away. Once I get them to take f/t pup I'll try that first then give them the live if they refuse. Eventually they switch over sometimes just takes a while.

[Caitlin]

Just a thought, maybe we should get her F/T adult mice and just store them with Jasper's frozen rats, maybe that might work to help her switch?

That's a good strategy. And of course it's fine to feed live rat pups if she'll take them - I'm not at all disagreeing with feeding your snake whatever she's interested in eating; I just wanted to respond to your interest in ultimately getting her to take F/T and to reassure you that given how young she is, you have a lot of time before the hassle of feeding multiple mice rather than a rat becomes an issue.

I've never seen any data demonstrating that rats are better than mice, or vice versa. The key to good feeders is making sure that the feeder animal gets good care and high quality food; a rat kept in poor conditions and fed a lousy diet will never be a better food source than mice kept in good conditions and fed a nutritious diet. So for me at least, the rats vs. mice debates have never been convincing (though I am always interested in any updated data/nutritional analysis if it becomes available).

I totally get the convenience factor of feeding a single rat rather than more than one mouse. But just IMO, when we're talking about baby snakes, I think there's plenty of time to be flexible with options and approaches.

[AutumnVanilla]

Thank you all for your feedback! It is much appreciated!

That's a good strategy. And of course it's fine to feed live rat pups if she'll take them - I'm not at all disagreeing with feeding your snake whatever she's interested in eating; I just wanted to respond to your interest in ultimately getting her to take F/T and to reassure you that given how young she is, you have a lot of time before the hassle of feeding multiple mice rather than a rat becomes an issue.

Thank you! We mainly wanted to get her on F/T before we have to go up in feeder size, I am not willing to risk any injury to her as the rats get bigger - so for now, that has been why we would have a few attempts then just get live. I will get her some frozen mice and store them with Jasper's rats and see if that works.

[Bogertophis]

...I've never seen any data demonstrating that rats are better than mice, or vice versa. The key to good feeders is making sure that the feeder animal gets good care and high quality food; a rat kept in poor conditions and fed a lousy diet will never be a better food source than mice kept in good conditions and fed a nutritious diet. So for me at least, the rats vs. mice debates have never been convincing (though I am always interested in any updated data/nutritional analysis if it becomes available)...

I'm with you, we could all use better & more recent research on snake nutrition.

I've seen data that shows healthy well-fed c/b mice very much equal to healthy well-fed c/b rats in terms of nutrition, with neither one really being a clear winner for feeding snakes.

There's minor differences unlikely to affect BPs, but remember that NEITHER domestic rats OR domestic mice are the actual diet of a ball python in nature anyway, so for me, it's a moot point.

What WOULD be interesting is to see how their natural wild prey stacks up to what they're being fed in captivity. I'm willing to bet they're much lower in fat content (most wild creatures run lean) so maybe the higher fat diets that captive BPs consume is actually one of the reasons they can be picky eaters & fast? (Nutritional fat makes you feel full for longer, & perhaps the same is true for snakes?)

If it's keeping anyone awake nights, I'd just occasionally add some reptile vitamin & mineral powders when feeding, not more than once a month unless the snake is currently a breeder. The main issue for me would be convenience- feeding only one item (rat) of appropriate size when the snake is an adult.

[Snow Balls]

Trust me if ASFs were legal here in California I would strictly feed them an ASF diet

[Bogertophis]

Trust me if ASFs were legal here in California I would strictly feed them an ASF diet

But even then, it wouldn't be the same as wild prey, only "closer" to it. Because our captive rodents are fed mostly grain-based diets, which is likely NOT the same as the plant-based food they'd consume in the wild. The same thing happens with other species too- like the way cattle are fed & fattened up unnaturally on grain, when they actually evolved to eat grasses.

[AutumnVanilla]

Found this chart at https://southfloridarodents.com/nutritional-values/. So adult mice are (size-wise) the equivalent to a rat pup, and pretty close on the nutrition. I really appreciate all who have chimed in on this. I am going to stick with the F/T mice and work on transitioning her to F/T rats, she has plenty of time. No move live for the sweet savage

[Bogertophis]

Part of the problem with charts like this is that it still would be best to have expert interpretation of the data with respect to keeping snakes: It's still only a comparison of domestic rodents+, not the natural diet of snakes, and what's more, I think many of us might assume that a slightly higher % of protein in adult rats makes them "better than" mice for snakes, BUT we still don't know if that higher % is what's actually best for the snakes- many times, nutrition is about a certain optimal balance of nutrients- ie. how they work together in the body. So I think we should be careful about making assumptions.

For snakes that accept some variety, I think that's a good idea too. Going back many years, when I bred & sold rodents, I did often feed more variety, but since then I've had very healthy & long-lived snakes despite feeding only mice. Which is why I lose no sleep over it. And remember that wild snakes evolved without optimal conditions too- if anything, they're designed to handle "adversity".

[EL-Ziggy]

You’ve got multiple options. Your BP will eat f/t mice and live rats. I’d rather feed f/t over live any day and would make that a higher priority than getting him onto rats right now. At such a young age, and even for adult BPs, being fed mice for life isn’t a big deal at all. As adults they’d only need 2 mice per feeding at most. I’m only concerned with my larger snakes, like the boas, olive, and scrub python being on rats. I have one carpet that prefers mice so that’s what I feed him. He will eat rats occasionally though. If you want to switch him to rats later that’s cool, hopefully he’ll transition easily. If not, let him enjoy his mice 😀. I agree that consistent successful feedings are the number one goal.

The hunger ALWAYS wins/ waiting game approach has proven to be 100% effective to date, it’s never failed to my knowledge, but I only stress that as a message of patience and encouragement for keepers who are overly worried when their snakes won’t eat or go off food. You already know what you’re doing 😀.

Best wishes.