Basking spot and UVB

[KMG]

So, in general, unless a given species isn't on vertebrate diet (partially or fully), or the species is otherwise known to bask frequently and thus WOULD actually get something out of a UVB bulb, there's generally not much reason to have UVB for snakes as a whole?

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I would say so.

I can say that my Ball did not show a difference when I added the UV light. She's the same snake that she was before.

[TofuTofuTofu]

I can say that my Ball did not show a difference when I added the UV light. She's the same snake that she was before.

UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

[KMG]

UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

It is UVB that I have.

I didn't think you were trying to argue. You couldn't have if you wanted to being you had not watched the video you added. I just took that and watched part of another to get an idea of what you were suggesting.

As to the usage of the word "deserves" it certainly shows your feeling on the matter. Certainly stands out and seems very pointed. I would say you are in no position to assume what anybody else's snakes deserve. You say it can't hurt. Really?

I have how many snakes compared to you? 14 - 2, I believe. Have you priced a Zoo Med T5 bulb? A two pack on Amazon is $50 at the moment. So let's say I had one for every snake. I would need seven packs which is $350 before tax. You don't think that could hurt some folks? Could I pay it? Sure. But why? If my collection is not going to really prosper with it the value is simply not there in my opinion.

I am certainly all for doing what is needed for my snakes and don't mind spending money.....but I am not into wasting it. I have the UV light I have because my Ball's tank does not get enough sun to provide what the live plants need that are within. That is it.

Now if you or anybody else wants to put UV lights in their snakes cages I am all for it. I just would refrain from suggesting it to others as if not doing so is some how negligent.

[Hugsplox]

UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

I want to be very careful how I word this because I don't want to argue and I'm not trying to guess at the meaning behind some of your statements, so please take this as what it is, an attempt at open dialogue.

If you're thinking that the only basking behavior is basking under UVB sources that just isn't accurate. My snakes will bask under heat sources, as do my lizards. I've put UVB and LEDs side by side on hognose enclosures and saw no behavioral difference between the two snakes. A light was a light to them, they just looked for the heat. Not claiming that UVB did them any harm, but I didn't notice any benefit either.

I don't think anyone took your follow up post as an argument but coming back with it being up to us to determine if our animals "deserve" something I do take a little issue with. Typically, when I see that with users here and on other forums its coming from someone who stated an opinion, is disagreed with, and uses it to try to imply that other keepers are being negligent. Again, not putting words in your mouth, that's just how it comes off, and considering you yourself talk as if you don't currently have UVBs on your enclosure, it's kind of odd for you to use that language.

To each their own, and if OP can afford to outfit his enclosure with whatever he wants, then more power to him. What I don't want to do is make a bunch of newer keepers think they're doing something wrong by not keeping their animals the way you think they need to be kept.

I have how many snakes compared to you? 14 - 2, I believe. Have you priced a Zoo Med T5 bulb? A two pack on Amazon is $50 at the moment. So let's say I had one for every snake. I would need seven packs which is $350 before tax. You don't think that could hurt some folks? Could I pay it? Sure. But why? If my collection is not going to really prosper with it the value is simply not there in my opinion.

I am certainly all for doing what is needed for my snakes and don't mind spending money.....but I am not into wasting it. I have the UV light I have because my Ball's tank does not get enough sun to provide what the live plants need that are within. That is it.

KMG says it best here, pro-spending money to give our animals the best life we can, but anti-wasting money on equipment that offers no clear benefit. I assure you that my animals and I'm sure KMGs animals are all well taken care of and will live long comfortable lives.

A good example, I spent a little extra on a UV sterilizer for my tropical fish tank about a month ago, maybe more now. After running it for several weeks I saw absolutely no benefit to it. It was just an extra piece of equipment in my tank providing no noticeable benefit, just generating extra heat and noise, so I removed it. What started as something with rave reviews online, turns out that me doing regular maintenance was just as good as running it 24/7. That doesn’t mean I’m being negligent with my fish, or that they don’t deserve it, I just did a cost-benefit analysis and found it wasn’t worth it to me or the fish.

[KMG]

Also that $350 is just the bulbs for refills.

For simplicity lets just say my setups were all like my Ball and I was buying the same fixture, and we will go with the 39w which is $10 dollars cheaper at $70.

So the fixtures for my 14 cages, which will include the first bulb, would be $980....again before taxes. Then don't they suggest changing the bulbs every 6 months or something like that?

It certainly starts to add up.

[Snagrio]

Believe I get the idea now. Might as well not spend a chunk of money on something that's not 100% necessary, or even outright practical going by the potential "too much heat" angle. By all means I want the very best for my boy, but if there doesn't seem to be any major benefit either way with the whole basking/UVB issue then might as well save my dollars for something else.

I think it's just because I'm also in a reptile social group elsewhere that's of a younger demographic, so information is not only being flung around much faster but the participants are also far more, shall we say, gung-ho with their opinions (for one thing they have this strange hatred for heat mats/pads). I get that this hobby is constantly evolving and husbandry techniques are always changing, but I still feel like this place has more grounded experience compared to a bunch of teens and early 20 year-olds who think they know everything after reading whatever online article.

[KMG]

Believe I get the idea now. Might as well not spend a chunk of money on something that's not 100% necessary, or even outright practical going by the potential "too much heat" angle. By all means I want the very best for my boy, but if there doesn't seem to be any major benefit either way with the whole basking/UVB issue then might as well save my dollars for something else.

I think it's just because I'm also in a reptile social group elsewhere that's of a younger demographic, so information is not only being flung around much faster but the participants are also far more, shall we say, gung-ho with their opinions (for one thing they have this strange hatred for heat mats/pads). I get that this hobby is constantly evolving and husbandry techniques are always changing, but I still feel like this place has more grounded experience compared to a bunch of teens and early 20 year-olds who think they know everything after reading whatever online article.

Don't like UTHs? They prefer the RHPs? Or what?

I have a oil filled heater for my main heat source in my snake room but each cage does have either a over head heat bulb, RHP, or UTH for a hotspot. I have some very nice ProProducts RHPs in my large cages but hardly ever run them as I just don't need to. Even during the bad freeze we had last year I didn't turn them on and everything was good. Once you get to a larger number having a designated room with a main heater is much easier to work.

[Snagrio]

Don't like UTHs? They prefer the RHPs? Or what?

I have a oil filled heater for my main heat source in my snake room but each cage does have either a over head heat bulb, RHP, or UTH for a hotspot. I have some very nice ProProducts RHPs in my large cages but hardly ever run them as I just don't need to. Even during the bad freeze we had last year I didn't turn them on and everything was good. Once you get to a larger number having a designated room with a main heater is much easier to work.

This is the message they like to spam whenever the topic of heat mats comes up:

Heat mats do work for keeping some herps alive. However, they are highly inefficient heaters, and they are not generally recommended as primary heat sources. Heat mats work by heating up a surface that they are touching (which is why they can't be used on the side of a tank), but they lack the ability to raise ambient (air) temperatures, which leads to an unnatural shift in temperature between the warm spot and the rest of the enclosure. This also means that heat mats cannot create a good temperature gradient across the enclosure. Additionally, they only produce IR-C, which only heats the surface of your pet. This type of heating is less efficient, meaning your pet needs to stay on it for longer, and it is not similar to the heat from the sun that they would get in the wild (IR-A and IR-B).


I can agree on the ambient temperature thing, learned that firsthand. But they flat out say heat mats are bad PERIOD which is just silly.

[KMG]

This is the message they like to spam whenever the topic of heat mats comes up:

Heat mats do work for keeping some herps alive. However, they are highly inefficient heaters, and they are not generally recommended as primary heat sources. Heat mats work by heating up a surface that they are touching (which is why they can't be used on the side of a tank), but they lack the ability to raise ambient (air) temperatures, which leads to an unnatural shift in temperature between the warm spot and the rest of the enclosure. This also means that heat mats cannot create a good temperature gradient across the enclosure. Additionally, they only produce IR-C, which only heats the surface of your pet. This type of heating is less efficient, meaning your pet needs to stay on it for longer, and it is not similar to the heat from the sun that they would get in the wild (IR-A and IR-B).


I can agree on the ambient temperature thing, learned that firsthand. But they flat out say heat mats are bad PERIOD which is just silly.

I see. Yeah I say that is silly. Nobody here with experience will tell you a UTH can be used alone. They certainly have their place though.

[Caitlin]

I do provide UVB to my snakes, and am not here to argue at all, just to provide some info regarding the OP's original questions!

I wouldn't set up a halogen bulb in addition to an RHP. That's overkill. Go with one or the other as a heat source.

If you are still interested in providing UVB I'd suggest putting this on your 'someday' list, and take some more time to learn about it, as there's a lot to take in, and info about lighting can become pretty arcane pretty quickly. In the meantime you can think of UVB as a supplement rather than as a requirement - unlike some reptiles, snakes don't seem to directly require UVB for D3 synthesis. Your snake will be OK without it, but the research is pretty clear that UVB is beneficial even to crepuscular reptiles like Ball Pythons.

Should you elect to provide UVB, you need to plan for the fact that it isn't cheap. It also needs to be done correctly - the Arcadia Shadedweller bulb is indeed a good choice - because just setting up UVB without correct planning for bulb/reflector placement and clutter/hide placement can be dangerous to your snake. I prefer using a solarimeter to double check UVB levels, and that is another expense.

I almost never recommend Facebook groups, but I do recommend the Reptile Lighting group because most of the admins are veterinarians and/or researchers with decades of experience in reptile heat and lighting work, and the group doesn't permit rudeness or claims that aren't science-based. It can be some pretty heavy reading, though, but the information is well worth it. John Courteney-Smith, who directs reptile/bird science at Arcadia is also always courteous and a great source of information. I could have sworn he used to post here occasionally but I may be misremembering.

So long story short - I do advocate for UVB availability as an option for captive reptiles, I do provide UVB, and I do recommend that anyone interested take their time, do their homework, and consider whether it's an expense they can take on.