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  1. #1
    Registered User TofuTofuTofu's Avatar
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    Quick question about body condition/weight

    Hi! My Chico is doing great so far. But, I'm wondering if he's a little pudgy. Compared to photos of other adult Trans-Pecos rat snakes, he seems a little fatter--for example, his head seems a little too small when compared to his middle. Also, like picturing a cross-section of his body, it seems more rounded than "square" like other photos of TPRSes I have seen. The book I have says their cross-section should be shaped like a loaf of bread, but his is a little more rounded. He does have a little bit of fat just before his vent area (sort of hard to see in these photos, but I tried). In the second photo, the vent is right about where my thumb is.

    I'm wondering if he has extra fat, or whether him being previously kept in a rack for his whole life just means he doesn't have much muscle tone.

    He refused his first meal last weekend (I have had him two weeks as of yesterday), and I'm unsure how often he used to be fed, but... What would you all recommend as a feeding schedule if he needed to lose any weight? Or, do you think his body condition will improve as he gets more space and exercise over the next few months?







    Here are a few other TPRSes for comparison:



    Last edited by TofuTofuTofu; 09-29-2021 at 07:32 PM.
    ----------
    Animals in my house:

    1.0 Green Iguana
    1.0 New Zealand Rabbit
    1.0 Blonde Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
    1.0 Japanese Rat Snake
    ? Panda King Isopod Colony
    6 Blue Death-Feigning Beetles
    4 Hellburnt Diabolical Ironclad Beetles

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    Bogertophis (09-30-2021)

  3. #2
    BPnet Lifer dakski's Avatar
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    Re: Quick question about body condition/weight

    Bogertophis is the Trans-Pecos expert. However, my two cents is it probably won't hurt to feed an adult mouse every two weeks (assuming he can handle an adult mouse - is he over 250G +/-?)

    Figment, one of my corns got a little chubby on weekly feedings and I moved him to every 2 weeks and he is doing great and has leaned out.

    Solana, my female corn, is a little smaller at about 360G and happily eats every two weeks as well and has great body condition.

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  5. #3
    Registered User TofuTofuTofu's Avatar
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    I have not yet weighed him, but plan to maybe next week. He was initially quite fearful of me handling him, so I wanted to give him extra time to settle in. But, as evidenced in these photos, he loves to explore just outside of his quarantine tub. Today, he was totally fine with me picking him up to redirect him away from the floor (and also chooses to be near me when I sit next to the tub), so I think we'll make enough progress for me to weigh him soon.

    When he refused his food last, he did go right up and smell the mouse (I think I got "small adult" mice--defrosted and then heated with a hair drier to 98 F), but didn't seem interested enough to eat it. I left it in his enclosure overnight as well, thinking perhaps he was drop-fed previously. I thought maybe it was stress related, but he could have just been not hungry. The day I got him, he pooped, and then again a few days later, so I think he likely ate just a few days before arriving to me.
    ----------
    Animals in my house:

    1.0 Green Iguana
    1.0 New Zealand Rabbit
    1.0 Blonde Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
    1.0 Japanese Rat Snake
    ? Panda King Isopod Colony
    6 Blue Death-Feigning Beetles
    4 Hellburnt Diabolical Ironclad Beetles

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    Bogertophis (09-30-2021)

  7. #4
    BPnet Veteran nikkubus's Avatar
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    My guess from what I can see of him is that it's mostly the latter, but he could probably stand to lose a little fat, nothing drastic.
    7.22 BP 1.4 corn 1.1 SD retic 0.1 hognose

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    TofuTofuTofu (09-30-2021)

  9. #5
    BPnet Lifer dakski's Avatar
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    Re: Quick question about body condition/weight

    Quote Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu View Post
    I have not yet weighed him, but plan to maybe next week. He was initially quite fearful of me handling him, so I wanted to give him extra time to settle in. But, as evidenced in these photos, he loves to explore just outside of his quarantine tub. Today, he was totally fine with me picking him up to redirect him away from the floor (and also chooses to be near me when I sit next to the tub), so I think we'll make enough progress for me to weigh him soon.

    When he refused his food last, he did go right up and smell the mouse (I think I got "small adult" mice--defrosted and then heated with a hair drier to 98 F), but didn't seem interested enough to eat it. I left it in his enclosure overnight as well, thinking perhaps he was drop-fed previously. I thought maybe it was stress related, but he could have just been not hungry. The day I got him, he pooped, and then again a few days later, so I think he likely ate just a few days before arriving to me.
    Rat snakes, unlike BP's, do not have heat pits. No need to warm up the mouse before feeding him.

    Just defrost in room temp water for a while (in a plastic bag if you want - or dry off) and then offer.

    If he hasn't eaten yet, I wouldn't be handling him at all right now. Get a few meals in him first.

    Also, what are your temps? I assume you know that trans pecos need different requirements temp and humidity wise than a BP? Definitely dryer and 82-84F hot spot/warm side and room temp cool side is fine down to 70F +/-.

    Any questions, just ask. We are here to help.

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  11. #6
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Quick question about body condition/weight

    Quote Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu View Post
    Hi! My Chico is doing great so far. But, I'm wondering if he's a little pudgy. Compared to photos of other adult Trans-Pecos rat snakes, he seems a little fatter--for example, his head seems a little too small when compared to his middle. Also, like picturing a cross-section of his body, it seems more rounded than "square" like other photos of TPRSes I have seen. The book I have says their cross-section should be shaped like a loaf of bread, but his is a little more rounded. He does have a little bit of fat just before his vent area (sort of hard to see in these photos, but I tried). In the second photo, the vent is right about where my thumb is.

    I'm wondering if he has extra fat, or whether him being previously kept in a rack for his whole life just means he doesn't have much muscle tone.

    He refused his first meal last weekend (I have had him two weeks as of yesterday), and I'm unsure how often he used to be fed, but... What would you all recommend as a feeding schedule if he needed to lose any weight? Or, do you think his body condition will improve as he gets more space and exercise over the next few months? ....
    Hi, sorry I was mostly AWOL yesterday- I was having "fun with fall leaves".

    First: He's a well-fed adult but not obese. When you get a snake, please always ASK what & how often the snake was fed- it saves a lot of worry.

    He can eat every 10-14 days, & to help him slim down a bit, I'd go on the long side (q. 14 days). When a snake's head looks too small for their body*, that's typical of a snake that was over-fed for fast growth- it's not as obvious from this photo as perhaps it is to you- anyway, not much you can do about it. Snakes don't do well on 'diets', so just feed on the small size (1-small "lean" adult mouse per meal) & improve his activity, but only after he has settled in. (About the "small head" appearance, it means that his body was fed more food-faster than his bone growth could keep up with.)

    If I recall, he is 6 years old? Anyway, he is much more affected by rehoming as an established adult than a hatchling would be, so be patient, & don't handle until he's eating routinely. As with ANY new snake, it's best to house them in a manner similar to what they had before. This advice would have had better impact if you'd had it before you suddenly got this snake, & apparently he's a bit overwhelmed (stressed) by all the changes, poor fella. Patience...
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 09-30-2021 at 11:03 AM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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    TofuTofuTofu (09-30-2021)

  13. #7
    Registered User TofuTofuTofu's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone! So, I only tried heating up the mouse after thawing it because the Suboc book says it could help if the TPRS is a stubborn feeder--thought it couldn't hurt. We don't hair drier our Japanese rat snake's food, but he is a voracious little child.

    So, quarantine enclosure stuff: I have a heat mat covering almost the front half of the enclosure (I was using one that was about 1/4 of the enclosure, until a few days ago). Half of each hide intersects the heat. Surface temp on the paper towel is about 85 F, maybe a degree or two less. My house temp is set to 76; I think the cool side can be a little cooler than that. The lid has literally a couple hundred holes drilled in it for ventilation. I did actually give him a humid hide with very lightly dampened sphagnum moss, and he will go in there a few times per day. His other hide is a smallish cardboard box that he will also use. He has a heavy water dish that I have not seen him drink from but he pooped in it once, lol.

    I've been doing "choice-based handling" with him, and have only allowed him out when he "asks" to come out. If he is out, looking at me, I will open the lid. He will choose to exit the tub at a molasses pace and smell the things around his tub, and will usually just put himself back in his tub a while later. I watch him closely for any signs of stress (I have this snake body language chart taped above his tub) and will only interfere if he goes somewhere he shouldn't. I've only had to actually touch him twice: once to move him away from an area behind his tub, and the other time yesterday when he went towards a similar spot. I can see the perspective of saying no handling until he has eaten, although I'm fairly confident based on his body language and the fact that it has been completely his choice to come out, that he is not stressed by this. This is not the same as just opening his tub and picking him up, which I have never done and probably will never do unless it's an emergency. He is not being "handled" during these sessions, and at most will be redirected with a hook or using my hand/arm more like an object rather than picking up and holding him.

    I know choice-based handling is a relatively new method and most people here probably are not familiar with it, so I just wanted to explain what I was doing. Could be a topic for another post, although there are good videos on the matter that would probably explain it better than if I were to type it out.

    If he refuses food this weekend, then I will probably just leave him completely alone for a week and try again--just in case it could be stress. At this time, I don't believe he is stressed, based on his behavior. He isn't out of his tub every day by any means. Depending on what I am doing and if he appears to want to come out, those two things have to intersect (because he is so slow, lol, his "sessions" take a while since they are based around me allowing him choice without interfering with handling). But yeah. I know I'm new at this so, definitely am open to suggestions! I just wanted to type all this up because, kind of really interested in this method at this time, and wanted to share/explain what was going on.

    If it's best to just keep him closed in the tub until he eats, then I will do that. But I wanted to clarify what I meant by handling, as it probably isn't what most people think.
    Last edited by TofuTofuTofu; 09-30-2021 at 10:32 AM.
    ----------
    Animals in my house:

    1.0 Green Iguana
    1.0 New Zealand Rabbit
    1.0 Blonde Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
    1.0 Japanese Rat Snake
    ? Panda King Isopod Colony
    6 Blue Death-Feigning Beetles
    4 Hellburnt Diabolical Ironclad Beetles

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    Bogertophis (09-30-2021)

  15. #8
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: Quick question about body condition/weight

    Quote Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu View Post
    I have not yet weighed him, but plan to maybe next week. He was initially quite fearful of me handling him, so I wanted to give him extra time to settle in. But, as evidenced in these photos, he loves to explore just outside of his quarantine tub. Today, he was totally fine with me picking him up to redirect him away from the floor (and also chooses to be near me when I sit next to the tub), so I think we'll make enough progress for me to weigh him soon.

    When he refused his food last, he did go right up and smell the mouse (I think I got "small adult" mice--defrosted and then heated with a hair drier to 98 F), but didn't seem interested enough to eat it. I left it in his enclosure overnight as well, thinking perhaps he was drop-fed previously. I thought maybe it was stress related, but he could have just been not hungry. The day I got him, he pooped, and then again a few days later, so I think he likely ate just a few days before arriving to me.

    You don't really need to weigh this snake- personally I wouldn't, it only adds stress. When a snake is obviously eating- as with this well-established adult- it's just not something I'd worry about.

    I agree, that you probably just offered his meal too soon after he last ate, & also before he has settled in enough to feel hungry. Patience. It's a good sign that he sniffed it anyway. You can't tell when he ate last from the fact he just defecated- but in any event, he's not starving, so don't push food on this guy before he's hungry.

    I do NOT heat prey for TPs or other colubrids- no wonder he looked at it funny! Just thaw & blot off a little if wet.

    I'm glad he's getting more relaxed with your presence now. You'll get there...

    Agree with dakski on temperatures- most of his living space can be 70-75*- with hides- and warm hide/area 86* max. As I've said before, my snakes are in glass tanks w/ screen tops, so their homes are mostly the room temperature of my house- t-stat for my HVAC is 78-80* in summer & 70* in winter. All have UTH/hides & some have overhead warmth added if they like it.

    My TPs clearly enjoy night warmth from above also (in winter), in the form of black incandescent bulbs in reflector -dimmed to minimal level!!!- over branches/basket they can climb in or on. I only discovered this after years of successfully keeping them without this, so I wouldn't say it's essential, just something they like when available- it's an option that increases their visibility (activity) too. It sounds like your guy is just now figuring out the world is a lot bigger than he thought.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 09-30-2021 at 10:40 AM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  17. #9
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Your choice-based "handling" sounds like it's helping him figure out that "he's not in Kansas anymore", and will help him realize he's in a safe place now. Good idea. By doing this, you're giving him credit for having a brain & using it- & that has to be beneficial, IMO.

    FYI, I don't & never have used humid hides for TPs. It's an option that apparently he likes, but just saying- these are desert snakes, & while I'd assume that caves are more humid than above ground, just make sure he doesn't end up with a fungal infection. Watch close & stop using the humid hide if you see any skin issues. In any event, mine never have trouble shedding & don't apparently need a humid hide.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  19. #10
    Registered User TofuTofuTofu's Avatar
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    Re: Quick question about body condition/weight

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    FYI, I don't & never have used humid hides for TPs. It's an option that apparently he likes, but just saying- these are desert snakes, & while I'd assume that caves are more humid than above ground, just make sure he doesn't end up with a fungal infection. Watch close & stop using the humid hide if you see any skin issues. In any event, mine never have trouble shedding & don't apparently need a humid hide.
    So, I actually wasn't planning on including one, but I put the dried moss in there as a way to make the one hide, a leftover container with a hole in it, "tighter" so he would feel more secure. I did put a small amount (literally just shook water off of my hands) of water in it so I could loosen the moss and break it into pieces, which comes in a solid block (I use it for my plants sometimes). It doesn't look too humid in there, actually... There is a little bit of moisture/fog near the bottom on the side where the heat mat is, for part of the day, which I would guess isn't more than like... 60% humid, but can't measure it, obviously. Just going off of what I know about terrariums, being a plant hoarder, lol. But yeah I'll definitely be keeping an eye on him for any symptoms. He's been using it for two weeks without anything apparent so far, but I'm guessing it's because it really isn't that humid in there?

    I like your suggestion about nighttime heat for the wintertime. I do want to look into that for when I put him in his permanent enclosure, which will happen during the winter. It's not cold here yet, but by the time he moves in late December or early January, he will probably appreciate it.
    ----------
    Animals in my house:

    1.0 Green Iguana
    1.0 New Zealand Rabbit
    1.0 Blonde Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
    1.0 Japanese Rat Snake
    ? Panda King Isopod Colony
    6 Blue Death-Feigning Beetles
    4 Hellburnt Diabolical Ironclad Beetles

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    Bogertophis (09-30-2021)

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