20-year Roommates -- Still Some Issues

[keg11v]

Quick context: I got my two BPs when I was 10 and I just turned 30, and they've lived in this enclosure virtually their entire lives (and 2/3 of mine!). We obviously weren't aware of the logic behind keeping BPs separate, and they've been healthy and mostly well-behaved for the vast majority of this time so I'm not interested in separating them.

In the last several years I've run into some problems that I'd love some advice on. My BPs have become increasingly difficult to work with during feeding, and I'm not sure why. I feed one live medium rat each every ~2 weeks. When they were younger I'd just drop one in the cage, one would hunt, then I'd wait until he starts swallowing and drop the other one in, no problem. I can't imagine that working now.

The feeding response has become so intense that one might even strike at the other while he's killing or swallowing his rat, so I started feeding them separately out-of-cage in cardboard boxes. The other main reason for that change was they would constantly get wads of shredded coconut in their mouths while feeding (we used unsuitable bark that didn't cause this particular problem when they were younger). They also started striking at my hand sometimes both before and after feeding, even though they've been handled plenty throughout their lives. They struck at my dog as he walked by the enclosure the other day-- this is way outside of their behavior I've seen in all these years.

I'm aware, as you must be, of the risks and downsides (for some) of feeding out-of-cage. I've made it work so far with no regurgitations and minimal bites, but damned if it isn't nerve racking! I lay a pillow case over one for a minute or two before putting them back in the cage so they "shut down", but they're still so jacked up after putting them back in that I have to be super careful putting the other snake in or the first one might strike at him.

Overall they just seem way more intense during feeding sessions, and I'm not sure what to do. I can't feed in cage with this coconut shell unless I try the large plate or tub-lid method people have suggested, but that doesn't solve the problem of their raging feeding-response.

Looking forward to your ideas.

[mdb730]

Sounds like they are stressed, two snakes having to compete for heat/hides/food could make them very defensive. It could also it be that they are now conditioned to expect food when they are out of their cage. My boas are ready to strike as soon as I open their enclosures and if I don't rub them on their head with my snake hook they will tag me. They are conditioned to expect food if the terrarium door is opened and no hook touches them. I know you been keeping them for 20 years and you probably believe if it ain't broke why fix it but two enclosures erases almost all your problems. Snakes won't be stressed, and you won't have to feed them out of their enclosure.

[KMG]

I really don't even know how to respond.

You seem to do pretty much everything against the usual methods, but want those that do things using the recommended methods to fix the problem.....without making changes to the methods you know are not recommended.

I want to suggest feeding F/T but expect you will have some reason you can't.

[bogie]

I would think that keeping 2 snakes together creates competition for food which is primary to their survival. Also they are solitary animals so keeping them together does not benefit either and they will never be buddies. More aggressive behavior would be expected. Separate then and you will likely see the behavior change when there is no competition for food. A snakes life is very simple, hunt, eat then hide and digest, repeat. They are not animals that make friends. If its smaller than you then it goes down the cake hole, if its the same size or bigger its competition. Not much more than that.

[keg11v]

Like I said, I've cared for these guys in the same enclosure for literally 20 years and there were almost zero problems until just a year or two ago. Most or all of my methods I got from either my veterinarians or this site... so yeah haha. That seems strange to me, so I thought I'd reach out. Perhaps it really is just a change in behavior with age.

Pardon my ignorance, but how are my methods so unusual aside from keeping them together? It's clear there are plenty of people who feed outside the cage and it works for them, and I even said this is new for me and I'm considering switching back, so I don't get the attitude.

[Bogertophis]

...so I'm not interested in separating them..............Looking forward to your ideas.

No, your mind is already made up- you don't want to accept the solution (House them separately & feed them in their own homes!) so why should we waste our time trying to dance around the issue?

Just because you've gotten away with co-habbing these unfortunate snakes doesn't mean you always will- or that somehow it's not harming them, just because you've closed your eyes to it. Stress lowers the ability of the immune system to function at it's best, whether you're a snake or a human. Sadly for your snakes, I don't think they'll be setting any records for longevity.

And you have the nerve to complain that it's "nerve-wracking" for YOU? How do you think THEY feel?

[KMG]

Like I said, I've cared for these guys in the same enclosure for literally 20 years and there were almost zero problems until just a year or two ago. Most or all of my methods I got from either my veterinarians or this site... so yeah haha. That seems strange to me, so I thought I'd reach out. Perhaps it really is just a change in behavior with age.

Pardon my ignorance, but how are my methods so unusual aside from keeping them together? It's clear there are plenty of people who feed outside the cage and it works for them, and I even said this is new for me and I'm considering switching back, so I don't get the attitude.

"Perhaps it really is just a change in behavior with age"........so maybe it is time for a change in your methods. My bulldog is getting up there in age and is a cranky pants, a grouchy ol lady, so I do things different with her than I did when she was a young pup. Times change so we need to as well.


As to your methods you are doing the three main things that are suggest not be done.

1. House together.
2. Feeding outside the cage.
3. Feeding live.

So how about my suggestion of feeding frozen thawed? Why feed live?

[Bogertophis]

I forgot to also take issue with feeding live. That definitely ramps up the aggression you'll see in snakes. Years ago, I knew a vet tech that kept a number of snakes, but she complained that none of them could be handled without bites. She swore by feeding them live. Then you add in the stress of co-habbing these 2 snakes- it's lucky they're BPs, because they're pretty low-key in general- so it's taken them this long to get ballistic about their unhealthy situation. It's not going to get better on it's own- please don't wait until they kill each other...none of us enjoy saying "I told you so." And I agree with KMG ^ ^ ^-if they're this aggressive about food, they're almost certain to take pre-killed prey, either f/t (frozen-thawed) or fresh-killed. It's time for change, if you care about these snakes?

[303_enfield]

What size is the set up? What size an weight are your snakes? A larger bio/tank/room helps. BUT it's best if BP's are housed separately. You'll have noodles cruising around instead of hiding.

Your not the first to house the wrong type of snakes together an you won't be the last. Your really lucky you didn't find hatchlings over the years.

Now, feed them both separate. I would use a large locking plastic tub. An wait hours after they are done before putting them back.

While many feed live, I don't as F/T is much safer. An cheaper for the most part.

20 years living with the same roommate? Your lucky they lasted that long!

If you want your snakes to last another 10 or so years? Make another set up for one of them.

Good luck!

[Caitlin]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this with your old friends. This is what I'd do in your situation.

If you have a good reptile vet, I'd take both snakes in for a thorough assessment of health, including any possible issues with vision. It's possible that one or both of them are experiencing age-related changes. For example, one or both may be having problems seeing or smelling and are struggling to figure out what may or may not be food. This could spark the reactivity you are seeing, and the other snake would also be triggered into a behavioral response by this. Sadly we know little about geriatric care in snakes, so it is hard to say if one or both are also experiencing cognitive or hormonal changes that may be impacting their behavior as well.

I would separate them TEMPORARILY until you get the results of the veterinary assessment. Doing so will give them the opportunity to settle down and will also help you determine whether one or both snakes are experiencing these issues, or if it's mainly just one and the other one reacting in response.

Once you have a better picture of what may be going on, you may ultimately decide that separating them is best. And/or it's possible that providing them with a significantly larger enclosure, furnished with multiple separate hides, will restore peace. Bigger enclosures are more expensive and harder to plan around, of course, so separation may be the simpler option.

It's also possible that simply because they are older, the environmental conditions that were adequate when they were younger may not be adequate now. They may not be able to tolerate the same conditions in terms of space and hide availability, or they may not be able to thermoregulate in the same way they did when younger, and this could be causing changes in behavior.

Again, your best option in order to understand what may be going on is to separate them at least temporarily so that you can determine whether one or both require different living conditions in order to feel safe and comfortable.

I hope my fellow members here don't crucify me over this, but I want you to know that I am not saying you have to separate your snakes just because that's the norm in husbandry. In my opinion, snakes that have cohabbed for as long as yours are in a category of their own, and the recent change in behavior indicates, to me at least, that this problem doesn't indicate that your prior cohabbing was 'bad'. It just means that something has changed, now you have to try to figure out what's up, and the fact that they are cohabbed may or may not be part of the issue.

Temporary separation is required right now as part of diagnosing what's going on. They may or may not be able to cohabit again, but I think you are going to have to take the separation step in order to get a better picture of what your ultimate best options will be.