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  1. #1
    Registered User mopuim's Avatar
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    Question Kingsnake Attacking Himself: I Don't Know What Else To Do

    Hello! I have posted here in the past due to this lingering problem I'm having with my kingsnake. (WARNING: There is a photo that contains blood)

    He has had a problem with biting himself ever since he got a bacterial infection. He attacks his tail from the side (sometimes near his cloaca) and doesn't let go. This causes him to get cuts, scale skin falling off, and scars. When this happens, I have to intervene using alcohol (I know I should use white vinegar, I just keep forgetting to buy some) and sometimes that doesn’t even work. After I get him to let go, he usually tightens around my hands or ties himself in knots (that he can get out of) like seen below:


    He has had an overactive feeding response and eats fine. I give him pup rats around once a week, where he used to eat every 2 weeks before he got sick and he acted fine.

    We had given him oral antibiotics for a period of time and they helped, then it came back and put him on them again. After that he didn't show signs of a bacterial infection, but he still kept biting himself. The exotic pet vet did an XRay with no issues, no parasites, no blockage, just the bacterial infection. Then we put him on antibiotics for a third time because he acted better on them. The vet suggested that there could be something neurological going on, but they aren’t sure.

    The thing is now, his stool seems normal, but he still has these behavioral issues. I had posted about an incident where he put a gash in his tail from biting himself (which healed fine), and I got a suggestion to fix the heat on his thermostat, and it seemed to help a lot and he didn’t bite himself as much. He could have been extra hungry due to a hurricane which put our power out for 10 days. The air conditioning didn’t work, but the house averaged 80-90 during the day. On the way back, I picked up a rat and fed him. I know he didn’t attack himself during that time because his tail had no marks.

    Today, he attacked himself twice. The second time he did it around his tree (which I have to take out periodically because he keeps attacking himself around it) and there was a lot of blood, and it takes a lot to make him let go:


    Long story short, I know he is in pain, but I don’t know what to do. I’m not sure if I should go to the vet again, but I don’t know what they’d do. I’ve considered the possibility of euthanasia, but I don’t know what he has or how severe it is. Of course I don’t want to put him down, but if it means he doesn’t have to live in pain for the rest of his life, then what other choice do I have?

    Thank you for taking the time to read this. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

    - Kaylee

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    Bogertophis (09-18-2021)

  3. #2
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    What a horrible thing to have to watch your beautiful pet suffering with. I'm wondering about something "neurological" too- I agree that it appears he's having some sort of pain and if I were in your shoes, I'd talk to my vet again, & yes (sorry) I'd probably consider euthanasia. Even humans sometimes suffer from "nerve pain" & there's a pretty wide variety of causes, very few if any-? are well-researched in snakes, much less treatable. If you look up something like "peripheral neuropathy" (for humans) you can see how many different causes there are. And humans have a lot more medications to deal with such things too. It could be something like a pinched nerve in his spine, maybe a spinal defect that has gotten worse as his bones have grown- pretty hard to find, much less fix. Do talk it over with your vet. I'm sorry, I wish I had a great idea to fix this, but I don't. There are things they just can't fix.

    Incidentally, bacterial & other infections are one of various things that can cause "peripheral neuropathy" in humans, & you say he's had one or more. It could be something like bone cancer too, or exposure to something toxic. Have you tried giving him Vitamin B shots (ask the vet) as that sometimes helps for humans- B-1, B-6, B-12, Vit.E & niacin are all essential to nerve health- not sure about snakes. Also, did you give him probiotics after all those antibiotics? to help restore his digestion? Maybe he's not digesting well enough & missing some key nutrients? Might be worth a shot (no pun intended).


    Last edited by Bogertophis; 09-18-2021 at 10:39 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  5. #3
    Registered User mopuim's Avatar
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    Re: Kingsnake Attacking Himself: I Don't Know What Else To Do

    I have an idea on exposure to something toxic. A while ago I made him some custom hides out of styrofoam and foam insulation. I coated it with grout and painted it with tempera paint (most recommended acrylic or stains). After that I coated it 3 times with polyurethane to seal it, and I made sure to seal it well. I found this DIY on several websites using the same or similar stuff and it had good reviews. I got him new hides about a year ago because I thought maybe he was stressed because the hides I made were pretty big and I thought he we feel more safe in something snug.

    I've had a hunch about this for a while because I think his bacterial infection started after I put them in his cage, but I don't know how much long after he got sick. He didn't start biting himself at the beginning of the bacterial infection. Tempera paint is non-toxic, but the hides still smelled like the paint after it was coated and snakes may not react to it the same (and there was nothing I could find on the internet about it). I don't know if that could have done anything, but it's making me sick to my stomach that I did something as stupid as this and now he might have something irreversible that's causing him to suffer.
    - Kaylee

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    Bogertophis (09-18-2021)

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    Re: Kingsnake Attacking Himself: I Don't Know What Else To Do

    Quote Originally Posted by mopuim View Post
    I have an idea on exposure to something toxic. A while ago I made him some custom hides out of styrofoam and foam insulation. I coated it with grout and painted it with tempera paint (most recommended acrylic or stains). After that I coated it 3 times with polyurethane to seal it, and I made sure to seal it well. I found this DIY on several websites using the same or similar stuff and it had good reviews. I got him new hides about a year ago because I thought maybe he was stressed because the hides I made were pretty big and I thought he we feel more safe in something snug.

    I've had a hunch about this for a while because I think his bacterial infection started after I put them in his cage, but I don't know how much long after he got sick. He didn't start biting himself at the beginning of the bacterial infection. Tempera paint is non-toxic, but the hides still smelled like the paint after it was coated and snakes may not react to it the same (and there was nothing I could find on the internet about it). I don't know if that could have done anything, but it's making me sick to my stomach that I did something as stupid as this and now he might have something irreversible that's causing him to suffer.

    I don't know if that exposure could be the cause or not, but for future reference, never expose a snake to any sort of off-gassing/fumes that you can smell from paints/stains or other chemicals. Another thing that is known to cause neurological damage in snakes is if they're over-heated. Anyway, you can mention that to the vet- I don't know what if anything they can do to fix such things.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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    If I think of anything else, I'll post again, but I hope, maybe someone else has some ideas too? This needs some brainstorming...it's not a common problem, that's for sure.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  11. #6
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    After he was on antibiotics did you treat him with a probiotic to re-establish his good gut flora? If not he may not be getting the full nutrition from what he eats, so he's going to be more hungry.

    I would try painting his back half with white vinegar twice daily since he's biting himself as a food response and he hasn't figured out that his back half is connected to his front half. It's not unheard of for snakes to do this - I've seen my king snake and retics grab themselves and wrap, especially at feeding time if they try to grab but miss the prey - but yours is carrying it to an extreme. If his back half smells like not-food and the behavior stops then you have your answer.

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  13. #7
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    Re: Kingsnake Attacking Himself: I Don't Know What Else To Do

    Quote Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
    After he was on antibiotics did you treat him with a probiotic to re-establish his good gut flora? If not he may not be getting the full nutrition from what he eats, so he's going to be more hungry.

    I would try painting his back half with white vinegar twice daily since he's biting himself as a food response and he hasn't figured out that his back half is connected to his front half. It's not unheard of for snakes to do this - I've seen my king snake and retics grab themselves and wrap, especially at feeding time if they try to grab but miss the prey - but yours is carrying it to an extreme. If his back half smells like not-food and the behavior stops then you have your answer.

    I wondered the same thing, in post #2, about his nutrition- I'm glad to see that you did too. I hope the OP talks over these nutritional options with the vet.

    As far as using white vinegar on the snake, won't that be irritating to his skin? And especially now on the injured skin? Plus, if it's some sort of internal pain that's causing him to bite himself, it sure won't help to add topical pain from the sting of vinegar in his wounds. When a snake bites themselves, there may be too many little injuries to avoid.

    I agree it might help to use SOMETHING topically though, to see if him smelling non-edible will help? It's worth trying- I'm trying to think of a good alternative. How about the Vetericyn ointment used for snake injuries? That might be a "taste turn-off", & at least it would also help his healing. Vetericyn is water-based & I think I'd try keeping a light coating on his lower-third, both to help his healing and hopefully, to taste bad? Anyway, that's what I would try.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 09-19-2021 at 10:34 AM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  15. #8
    bcr229's Avatar
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    Vetericyn is tasteless. OP could avoid rubbing the vinegar on any wounds. I suggested it because other options, such as strongly-scented hand sanitizers, aren't safe to ingest as they're alcohol-based.

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  17. #9
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    Re: Kingsnake Attacking Himself: I Don't Know What Else To Do

    Quote Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
    Vetericyn is tasteless. OP could avoid rubbing the vinegar on any wounds. I suggested it because other options, such as strongly-scented hand sanitizers, aren't safe to ingest as they're alcohol-based.
    And you wouldn't want to use most creams made for humans either, or anything with a "vaseline" base. I'll admit I've never tasted Vetericyn but I was hoping it might leave some sort of residue that the snake would be able to perceive, having a better sense of smell than we do? With the way the snake's injuries were described, there may be small punctures that aren't so obvious, & I'm also not sure how much aftertaste dry white vinegar will leave? How about using well-diluted Betadine (povidone-iodine), as it's also known to be safe topically on snake wounds- while perhaps being less likely to sting when applied? Or well-diluted generic chlorhexidine?
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 09-19-2021 at 12:04 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  19. #10
    Registered User TofuTofuTofu's Avatar
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    Maybe you could mix the Vetericyn with a spice? But I'm not sure if any spices would be harmful to the snake. I just thought having a smell detected, and it being something the snake doesn't identify as food (like maybe something a little less strong like anise, sage, or thyme?) then the snake would just ignore the tail. I wouldn't do a stronger spice like cinnamon or cloves or anything that could irritate the skin or would maybe be annoyingly strong for his sense of smell.

    I'm not sure if the vet would have been able to see or test for this, but I'm wondering if there is an infection in the spinal cord or maybe even brain area--given the fact that it gets better on antibiotics and he is showing neurological-like symptoms. It's worth asking about if they have not looked for that. Dunno if that is particularly helpful, but that it what I was thinking as I read through this.
    ----------
    Animals in my house:

    1.0 Green Iguana
    1.0 New Zealand Rabbit
    1.0 Blonde Trans-Pecos Rat Snake
    1.0 Japanese Rat Snake
    ? Panda King Isopod Colony
    6 Blue Death-Feigning Beetles
    4 Hellburnt Diabolical Ironclad Beetles

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