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  1. #71
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Well, if this latest small meal comes back up, just think about him like he's a human that's had the stomach flu, & needs a soft diet for a while until their stomach is ready to digest solid food- don't panic & think it's something awful like "crypto". I think it's much more likely to be from the Fortaz.

    Also, IF he cannot digest solid food yet, work on him keeping a liquid diet down- the hookworms can wait a while, until his body is in better shape. Dosing a snake with multiple meds is often poorly tolerated- just an observation of mine from this & other forums.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  3. #72
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Backing up to an earlier post of yours:

    I think that all the 3 doses of metronidazole (aka Flagyl) did was stimulate his appetite & manage to "harass" some of his hookworms into leaving- they're not likely to be gone from Flagyl alone.

    The more I think about what this snake has gone thru (all that Fortaz!) I have a hunch that crypto is not at all responsible for his regurgitation, which is good but now you have to get him cleaned out from the remaining hookworms, but do it GENTLY so his body can recover since his digestion has been thrashed. He needs some TLC x 100.

    That his appetite came back ("he was a pig") after 3 doses of Flagyl is NORMAL & expected, but it doesn't mean he was rid of hookworms at that time. Think about it- just because he felt hungry didn't mean his stomach was in any shape to receive & digest his food, so that's why he regurgitated. I'll say it again- antibiotics are not harmless- they're very hard on a snake's body.

    It's no wonder he's been losing weight- he's been sharing his food with worms PLUS regurgitating when he's tried to eat because his stomach needs help.

    You might need a different vet's opinion if this one is as unreceptive as you stated. Sorry to say- but only you know if you can really communicate with her on this or not. I wish I had caught this earlier- but when you said your vet found hookworms, I assumed he was being correctly dosed to get rid of them, & that the Flagyl was in addition to that medication -to stimulate his appetite & clear other parasites he was likely to have. What would have helped in this thread is a one-post "time-line" showing his meds & his regurgitations- it's hard for us to keep it straight.
    You're right- should have been more detailed, and listed all the meds, and the treatment plan. To be honest, I was pretty burnt out from all of this last year

    I've searched around in the past, but used this place because while I worked for animal control, we regularly used them for treating injured wildlife. That, and I've used them in the past with other reptiles. They're supposed to be the "go-to" around here for exotics. And they're fairly close to me.

    I still want to get him tested for the crypto of course, but if he keeps it down, they want me to bring him in 3 days from the successful feeding. I guess, to get a sample of his stomach contents for testing, if he doesn't "up" it, in which case, I'm to collect a sample of the fluids on the rodent. But I also don't want him to stress puke either.

    I think I just have terrible luck with vets.

    (Completely unrelated story,... while still being somewhat relevant to back that statement I just made, the last exotic vet clinic I went to actually killed one of my tiger salamanders in the single visit I made there. The vet told me I kept my salamander too cold", and took him into another room, where he apparently tried to "warm him up" with a hot wash cloth and heating pad. Brought him back into the room dead. I was devastated.
    This same vet ended up getting arrested in a police sting for soliciting minors last year. )

    And also, a pic of my guy from a couple of months ago






    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Awesomethepossum; 03-14-2022 at 09:14 PM.

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  5. #73
    BPnet Veteran Awesomethepossum's Avatar
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Well, if this latest small meal comes back up, just think about him like he's a human that's had the stomach flu, & needs a soft diet for a while until their stomach is ready to digest solid food- don't panic & think it's something awful like "crypto". I think it's much more likely to be from the Fortaz.

    Also, IF he cannot digest solid food yet, work on him keeping a liquid diet down- the hookworms can wait a while, until his body is in better shape. Dosing a snake with multiple meds is often poorly tolerated- just an observation of mine from this & other forums.
    Would he start having issues keeping food down related to the Fortaz after eating well for a while? Or is that just in conjunction with the worms flaring back up, if that be the case?

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    Last edited by Awesomethepossum; 03-14-2022 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #74
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum View Post
    Would he start having issues keeping food down related to the Fortaz after eating well for a while? Or is that just in conjunction with the worms flaring back up, if that be the case?

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    See, that's what I was getting at when I said a time-line would help. If he finished the Fortaz, & has kept food down for a while SINCE then, it shouldn't be the Fortaz (or rather the lack of digestive enzymes after Fortaz treatment) that's causing him to regurgitate. It could be the worms, it could be something else, & yes, I agree you should test him for crypto, just in case he was exposed somewhere along the way, since it's very contagious. But don't assume it has to be that.

    https://reptilesmagazine.com/the-vet...regurgitation/ excerpt: (after discussing the most common husbandry issues)

    ..."There are a number of other causes that make up the remaining 10 percent of vomiting cases. There are several diseases that can cause a snake to vomit or regurgitate shortly after taking a meal. The exact mechanisms are beyond the scope of this article, but some of the causes can include bacteria, fungal infections, viruses, parasites, obstructions, cancer, kidney, liver and pancreatic diseases, and brain damage. The diagnosis of some of these conditions can be as simple as examining a routine fecal sample or as intricate as performing elaborate laboratory tests or even an MRI. Unfortunately, some of these latter tests can be quite costly."...
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  8. #75
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum View Post
    You're right- should have been more detailed, and listed all the meds, and the treatment plan. To be honest, I was pretty burnt out from all of this last year

    I've searched around in the past, but used this place because while I worked for animal control, we regularly used them for treating injured wildlife. That, and I've used them in the past with other reptiles. They're supposed to be the "go-to" around here for exotics. And they're fairly close to me.

    I still want to get him tested for the crypto of course, but if he keeps it down, they want me to bring him in 3 days from the successful feeding. I guess, to get a sample of his stomach contents for testing, if he doesn't "up" it, in which case, I'm to collect a sample of the fluids on the rodent. But I also don't want him to stress puke either.

    I think I just have terrible luck with vets.

    (Completely unrelated story,... while still being somewhat relevant to back that statement I just made, the last exotic vet clinic I went to actually killed one of my tiger salamanders in the single visit I made there. The vet told me I kept my salamander too cold", and took him into another room, where he apparently tried to "warm him up" with a hot wash cloth and heating pad. Brought him back into the room dead. I was devastated.
    This same vet ended up getting arrested in a police sting for soliciting minors last year. )

    And also, a pic of my guy from a couple of months ago






    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Believe me, I can tell how stressful this has been for you. Gosh, he's a beautiful snake!

    I think it goes with the territory- exotics (especially herps) are a challenge, & most vets in this field would starve if that's all they saw. So nearly all of them see way more than herps, therefore they don't have as much experience as we expect to see from vets that treat more typical pets (dogs & cats). And because it often goes poorly, or there's few or no exotic vet nearby, or because many of those who own herps are under-age (& may have unsupportive parents), some herp-keepers don't bother to see the vet because they already expect a poor outcome no matter what (or they're in the business & do their own medical care)- so our vets don't get the experience they need to get really good.

    Add to that how stoic our snakes are and how much depends on us to describe every little thing to the vet. I've concluded that the local "go-to herp vet" is often so labeled because they're the only one around or the one most used. So [full disclosure] I don't have great luck with herp vets either. I wish I did. I'm so sorry about your salamander though...gee that was awful. I think we also have to realize that the reason we're less impressed with herp vets is because we already KNOW more than most of their walk-in pet-parents do, so it's harder to put things over on us. Many of us snake-keepers have learned to do a lot of our own research. BTW, I would avoid "stress-puking" your WLP also. He really needs some nourishment for a while.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  10. #76
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Believe me, I can tell how stressful this has been for you. Gosh, he's a beautiful snake!

    I think it goes with the territory- exotics (especially herps) are a challenge, & most vets in this field would starve if that's all they saw. So nearly all of them see way more than herps, therefore they don't have as much experience as we expect to see from vets that treat more typical pets (dogs & cats). And because it often goes poorly, or there's few or no exotic vet nearby, or because many of those who own herps are under-age (& may have unsupportive parents), some herp-keepers don't bother to see the vet because they already expect a poor outcome no matter what (or they're in the business & do their own medical care)- so our vets don't get the experience they need to get really good.

    Add to that how stoic our snakes are and how much depends on us to describe every little thing to the vet. I've concluded that the local "go-to herp vet" is often so labeled because they're the only one around or the one most used. So [full disclosure] I don't have great luck with herp vets either. I wish I did. I'm so sorry about your salamander though...gee that was awful. I think we also have to realize that the reason we're less impressed with herp vets is because we already KNOW more than most of their walk-in pet-parents do, so it's harder to put things over on us. Many of us snake-keepers have learned to do a lot of our own research. BTW, I would avoid "stress-puking" your WLP also. He really needs some nourishment for a while.
    I guess that's why it's getting complicated. Deciphering where to draw the line with relying on the vet and following their instructions, and going outside of that.

    Keeping in mind what you've said, paired with my own hesitant feelings about how the process has gone so far, and the lack of real results. It adds more heavily to my concerns. Especially if this IS the worms, and it could have been resolved with panacur months ago. And that I could have possibly just treated him myself with it. Or still could. Because from what I'm reading, yeah, flagyl shouldn't have been the go-to for the hookworms, which is really frustrating.

    So far, he's kept that fuzzy mouse down. If he doesnt regurg/vomit, I'm unsure if I should take him back to the vet right away, if I should be focusing on getting food in him. Unless he does, I wouldn't be able to get him in to see her this week anyway.

    I don't want to delay testing, or create an awkward dynamic with the vet since she was insistent with the 3 day thing. But it's at the point where I'm not sure where I should be taking more initiative, with his recovery in mind.

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  12. #77
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    Yes, very complicated. I'm glad you've had a chance to read some more & came to the same conclusion about Flagyl versus Panacur for hookworms. You still don't want to "burn your bridge" with the vet (since some doctors- of all kinds- don't take kindly to our input & instead expect us just to do as they say) so it puts you in a tough spot- I sure get that. It's wonderful to find a doctor (or vet) that sees their patients as part of the "team" but they're hard to come by.

    You may just have to "follow your gut" on this- I'm sure you could find reasons to postpone going in for testing this week, if that's your choice. On the other hand, he did eat willingly, right? So no reason to think he won't again- but it would be really nice to know if he fully keeps this meal down without "provocation" from the vet. If that was me, I'd be more willing to bring him in for the test ("3 days after a successful small meal") after he's had at least one more such meal (assuming he keeps this down). If he was my snake, I'd really want to see a little more food in him to keep up his strength- if you can stand not knowing for a little longer (ie. the crypto test). Especially since you mentioned how much weight he's lost.

    It's really a tough job to be a vet- they likely feel pressured to get the pets we love healthy as soon as possible- only with snakes, sometimes I think they try to throw too much at a snake's fragile body all at once. But that's just my opinion & I'm not a vet, so there you go- it's your call. And only you know his current condition (as far as how thin he is). If you can, be honest but tactful with your vet with your questions & hesitations. Listen with an open mind too, but if it still doesn't seem right to you, you'll have to be the "advocate" for your WLP.

    As far as this possibly being any sort of blockage (debris or tumor or abnormal GI tract), the vet could do a scan for that, right? Pricey though, if it can be avoided (medically helped instead).
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

  13. #78
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum View Post
    ...

    So far, he's kept that fuzzy mouse down. If he doesnt regurg/vomit, I'm unsure if I should take him back to the vet right away, if I should be focusing on getting food in him. Unless he does, I wouldn't be able to get him in to see her this week anyway.

    I don't want to delay testing, or create an awkward dynamic with the vet since she was insistent with the 3 day thing. But it's at the point where I'm not sure where I should be taking more initiative, with his recovery in mind.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Another way I'd look at this right now is to consider what's likely better for the snake: to quickly see the vet to test for crypto? or to help his nutrition & body weight?

    If
    your snake actually has crypto, then his outcome is bad no matter how fast you find out. The main downside of waiting is any risk to other snakes you might have.
    (Has he ever had any mucoid diarrhea, btw?)

    If your snake does not have crypto, but he continues to have a poor nutritional status, then no matter what his current issue is, he could also develop another health issue since his body is weak.

    It's your decision, even though it's sometimes challenging to be on the same page with your vet.

    But I'd still have to wonder why she never gave him Panacur to get rid of the hookworms which she verified in his stool right away? Both Flagyl & Panacur are pretty safely used in snakes & very helpful, especially in wild-caught snakes- but they don't do the same thing. I've used them both very effectively, btw.

    You mentioned that the seller said he had already treated this snake for "internal parasites"- but whether he used both of these meds would be helpful to know. Even if both were used, apparently he only treated enough for the snake to appear healthy enough to be sold, without fully getting rid of the hookworms. Oh the joys of w/c imported snakes... This is why many don't survive, sadly- the parasites, the stress from shipping+ plus the exposure to other diseases along the way. But with luck & in the right hands...

    Your vet also seems to jump to the most scary conclusions before testing- first it was IBD, now Crypto. Maybe she's recently dealt with some very sad cases, but most doctors don't give patients such dire news without being sure.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  15. #79
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    Bear in mind most exotic vets don't deal with WC critters often, so they're looking for the contagious diseases most prevalent in CB populations. Folks who regularly deal with WC usually treat for parasites themselves instead of going to the vet as wormers are available over the counter.

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  17. #80
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    Re: WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Another way I'd look at this right now is to consider what's likely better for the snake: to quickly see the vet to test for crypto? or to help his nutrition & body weight?

    If
    your snake actually has crypto, then his outcome is bad no matter how fast you find out. The main downside of waiting is any risk to other snakes you might have.
    (Has he ever had any mucoid diarrhea, btw?)

    If your snake does not have crypto, but he continues to have a poor nutritional status, then no matter what his current issue is, he could also develop another health issue since his body is weak.

    It's your decision, even though it's sometimes challenging to be on the same page with your vet.

    But I'd still have to wonder why she never gave him Panacur to get rid of the hookworms which she verified in his stool right away? Both Flagyl & Panacur are pretty safely used in snakes & very helpful, especially in wild-caught snakes- but they don't do the same thing. I've used them both very effectively, btw.

    You mentioned that the seller said he had already treated this snake for "internal parasites"- but whether he used both of these meds would be helpful to know. Even if both were used, apparently he only treated enough for the snake to appear healthy enough to be sold, without fully getting rid of the hookworms. Oh the joys of w/c imported snakes... This is why many don't survive, sadly- the parasites, the stress from shipping+ plus the exposure to other diseases along the way. But with luck & in the right hands...

    Your vet also seems to jump to the most scary conclusions before testing- first it was IBD, now Crypto. Maybe she's recently dealt with some very sad cases, but most doctors don't give patients such dire news without being sure.
    He still has that fuzzy in him, which is good. He's obviously lean/thin, but still rounded, no dullness in appearance. But I also know how quickly things can change. I'd like to see if I can get another meal in him, assuming he keeps this one down

    I don't think I've ever seen mucous in his stool. I know it could be easy to confuse a mostly digested meal from feces sometimes too....is that what you had in mind?

    Thats essentially the issue for me with the vet.....the jumping to scary conclusions, and grim delivery of it ('all other options have been exhausted' type vibe). That's been a heavy contributer to my stress.

    I had told myself I wouldn't get another WC snake. I didn't than on it either...but I saw him at an expo and went with it. I've never seen them at expos around here before.

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