"Brumating" 2yo BPs Won't Eat

[Feistay94]

Hey all,

I have two 2.5 year old ball pythons (female pied, male pastel butter het hypo) that are on a hunger strike. The female went on her first hunger strike last March, right before Covid closed down the US/New York. She didn't start eating again until September, but she didn't lose weight, acted normal, pooped, etc the whole time she refused food. We offered her a rat every time we fed our male. This year she's doing it again and our male has joined her. They both stopped eating this year around April and we've been offering rats every couple of weeks based on their weight. No weight change, no behavior change, same as my female last year.

Just to get the basics out of the way, they're in separate 40g tanks with the same accommodations (except the male has a skull mountain decoration that he's rather fond of), the two temp spots, humidity, etc. in each tank are appropriately timed and monitored. They live a pretty quiet life as we are at work between 6am and 6pm and except for cleaning the tank we only really handle them if they're already out and about (mostly the male because he's active every night, but we'll unearth the female if we haven't seen her to check on her). They were eating weekly when they were younger and got moved to 10 days, 14 days, etc. based on weight.

As far as I can tell there's nothing wrong with the tanks, they're not stressed, they are not trying to breed/look for each other, and nothing has changed from their normal routine since their last hide size upgrade in December 2020 (they were both eating regularly before and after until April 2021). So I'm wondering what ELSE could be going on or if they're just being finicky pains in the behind? Does a 2 week difference in their age make a difference as to why the male waited until this year to "brumate"? Is the winter "brumation" based on Africa's winter or their native hemisphere's winter (mine being NY's, which they obviously aren't going by lol)?

Thanks in advance for the advice and support!

Edit: I don't know if this is relevant, but the female sometimes does this weird thing where she won't strike, but if I put the rat down she pokes it a whole bunch and eats it off the ground like a scavenger. She did this a couple times last year when she did her hunger strike and again between Sept-April before she started this year's hunger strike. I have NOOO idea why she does it though. The male has never done this and was a ravenous eater up until April.

[GoingPostal]

Pic of the setup? What are the temps and humidity, specifically and what heating sources are you using, how are they being controlled, etc, how are you checking temps? Have you left the rats in overnight to see if they will eat them when left alone?

[Feistay94]

Hey GoingPostal,

Thanks for checking in! Sorry I didn't get to reply sooner. It's been busy closing down summer school and prepping for September.

I'm trying to figure out how to post the pictures from my phone, so check for another reply in a few minutes. If not, I'll get on my laptop.

They each have their own tanks, large water dish (w ReptiSafe when refilled), ReptiBark, with multiple hides and a heat pad on the hot side. They each have their own ZooMed combo thermometer and hygrometer and the heat pads are regulated by nodes from our HerpStat device. The humidity is between 55-65% depending on the day (we haven't set up their humidifier yet,, but they get sprayed regularly and only drop to the 50s% when we work late and it's dry out, so it's only a few hours of that humidity level at most). The pads are set so that their hide is between 85 and 90 and the cool side is usually around 75-80. We had the pads both at a warmer temp previously (about 90-95) but they ended up never wanting to use the hide until we dropped the temps a few degrees. The tanks have been set this way since around Thanksgiving 2020, so they were eating fine every 2 weeks at these temps/humidity until this past April. Up until then, the male NEVER refused a meal and ate like we starved him, but the female has always been picky but would eat semi-regularly at every 2-4 weeks (we would offer a rat on the days we'd normally feed her and if she took it, great). Sometimes we needed the hair drier to really super heat it before she'd strike.

Also I have never tried leaving the rats out overnight for fear they'd go bad too quickly (happened with a cornsnake once and we had to clean the cage bc he dragged it to his heat pad hide, didn't eat it, and... well it wasn't pretty lol). The female HAS eaten rats before after I've left them sit for a few hours. She comes out of her hide like she's interested and then pokes it a whole bunch and sometimes eats it, but only butt-first. We would stay up late to make sure she got the legs positioned for swallowing and finish before going to bed. For this reason we experimented with presenting the butt to her instead of the head and it worked a few times. But she only ate this way a few times (outside of actually striking) before going on her hunger strike in April. The male refuses to come out of his hide if we leave the rat to sit and he just hisses at it and puffs up and unearths his hide until we remove it.

[Feistay94]

Couldn't figure out how to add a photo, so here's two Google Drive links instead.

Please excuse the sticks all over the place in the male's tank. The male's interior design tastes are VERY specific *eyeroll*. Also I didn't realize the thermometers died until I took the pictures. They were on the other day when I made the initial post, so it's time for new batteries/therms.

I didn't note it in the post I just made, but there are towels across the top of the tanks to hold the humidity and a Zilla tropical bulb hood for light. It's on a timer. They HATED the basking spots in the original setup almost two years ago (and it made it very difficult to maintain humidity), so we scrapped that idea since we have the heat pads.

Female's tank: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BBq...w?usp=drivesdk

Male's Tank: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BH8...w?usp=drivesdk

[GoingPostal]

Do you have a temp gun to see what the temps are right on the glass over the heat pad and what they are on the ground level and in the hides? Often not eating is temp related so that's why my focus leans there. The other issue might be the openness of the caging, covering three sides and also getting hides which are identical on each side so they aren't choosing security over proper temps.

[Feistay94]

Yes, we have a temp gun, which I honestly trust more than the HerpStat, and that's the temps I usually go by. We did a lot of checking w the temp gun when we first set up the HerpStat and I also check frequently if we have a bad storm and lose power. The temps were our concern too, but as far as we're able to tell they seem fine unless we have weirdos who prefer to be colder...? If so, it explains why they eat fall-spring and stop in mid/late spring...

The identical hides idea might work. And I can cover the three sides with paper or something too. We have a few driftwood piles that we stacked like a hide that they like to climb when they come out (the male is out every night and his mission is to throw everything around the tank lmao... they have VERY specific locations he wants them in &#128580 and the female built herself a nice tunnel next to her water dish and the few times she DOES come out she holes herself up in her tunnel and just scopes all night from different vantage points. By the time we wake up she's back in the heat pad hide. Since they DO use them, we didn't think anything of it, but you might have a point about not feeling secure enough to STAY in the hides.

[nikkubus]

Considering the timing, I think it's completely natural and wouldn't make a big fuss about it. Almost all of mine do this every single year. I'd offer food less often until they are back on feed, maybe monthly.

[Feistay94]

Thanks for checking in nikkubus!

That's kinda what I'm figuring too. When my female did it last year she drank normally, still came out to explore, etc. I would scoop her up once a week to check her to see if she was losing weight or was injured or anything and she was fine all summer. Last year she started eating again at the end of August, but she went off food in early March. Assuming the "schedule" is similar I'm hoping she eats again in Sept. If the male follows the same schedule he sound start eating again in Sept/Oct (he went off food a couple weeks after the female).

The only thing I'm concerned about it how she hasn't grown as much as the male (she used to be WAY bigger than him because she's a couple weeks older, but he caught up when she went off food). I'm attributing it to him having eaten non-stop for his first 2.5 years and she stopped eating at 1.5 years and now again at 2.5, so she's missed several meals. I'm expecting him to plateau now and for her to slowly catch up over the next couple years in between her hunger strikes.

[nikkubus]

It can be frustrating when you are trying to get them up to size and they fast. There are some tricks I use but nothing I would try in a glass enclosure, they are already so tough to control without horsing around to fake seasons differently. JKR somewhere has a breeding chart with seasonal temps, and you can do those temps but tweak so the summer is shorter on subadult racks. The temps he shows are ambient, so hot spot will be more than that but not by a lot. I would practice on an empty rack to figure out exactly how the temps vary across the tubs and leave it a couple days before changing and testing another temp setting if anyone wants to try this method.