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  1. #11
    BPnet Veteran Snagrio's Avatar
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    Basically he's citing the exact same study that was posted here and is worried that if we don't self-regulate then governments will continue to legislate what we are and aren't allowed to have.

    Ultimately, it's a fool's errand. Probably would help a little and we as hobbyists should strive to improve and adapt to the best of our abilities, but in the end such people don't actually care about animal welfare. It's all about telling the little guy what they can and can't do.

    Any given domesticated mammal has undergone and STILL goes through horrendous breeding practices (I'm sure many of you are familiar with puppy mills for example and their association with places like Petland) yet you don't really see government outcry to ban a bunch of dogs (it does happen with specific breeds sometimes granted) because of bad egg breeders and owners that don't take care of their dogs properly. To give another example, this summer someone's pet spitting cobra escaped in North Carolina, and of course the entire thing was sensationalized even though it was eventually caught with no harm done to anybody, yet that was all it took for figureheads to start making sweeping ideas about what's allowed to be kept in the state. Meanwhile just this year so far, 28 people have been killed by dogs in the US, yet you don't see national headlines about it.

    The reality is, reptile keeping has unfortunately reached peaks in popularity at a time where powers in high places increasingly want to restrict what the common man can accomplish in their lives, and being as generally reviled as reptiles are in the first place, the hobby is all too easily caught in the crosshairs.

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  3. #12
    BPnet Veteran Caitlin's Avatar
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    I feel like I should present a bit of a counterpoint, as there are quite a few of us in the hobby who agree with the first article linked as well as the video linked later in the thread. So fair warning: this is a rant. But I'm going to try to make this my only post on the issue, as these boards are a safe haven for me and I want to keep it that way. Sincere apologies if I come off too strong here. I promise I won't be engaging in any arguments or further discussions about this. I think I just needed to get it said and then let it be.

    I am well aware that the study was supported in part by groups that want to ban reptile keeping. That doesn't make the study meaningless. Data is data, and the study isn't perfect (no study is perfect), but it was decently constructed and the conclusions were reasonable. I guess I should clarify that my whole career has been research centered and that searching, reading, and interpreting research has been virtually a daily activity for years.

    American standards of husbandry for reptiles are abysmally low, and I've suspected for a long time that this particular batch of chickens is going to come home to roost in ways that a lot of us won't like. We're seeing some of the consequences already playing out in the form of bans on specific species, with the legislation supported in part by groups whose long-term goal is to ban keeping all reptiles.

    Trying to pretend that articles like the one linked are worthless because we don't like some of the groups who sponsored the study is just sticking our collective heads in the sand, because there are plenty of studies out there reaching similar conclusions and making it crystal clear that husbandry improvements are needed for the welfare of reptiles. Some of those studies were funded in part by anti-keeping groups, but many were not. And believe me, the anti-keeping groups are happily noting every single one of the studies and using them as ammunition against us.

    Instead of responding effectively, keeper discussion groups often mock and ridicule many advocacy efforts for improved husbandry, and prefer to nitpick either the studies or the authors while steadfastly ignoring the larger issues the studies highlight, because we won't freaking acknowledge their importance and can't be bothered to consider changing or regulating our own hobby.

    This has nothing to do with the oh-so-evil government wanting to control citizens. How do I know this? Because I've worked directly with legislators and legislation on more occasions than I care to recall. Well-organized anti-keeping groups are very effective at lobbying. "The government" (legislators) responds to those organized efforts. In the meantime, we as breeders and keepers have frankly done a lousy job of responding in any effective, organized way. And we have utterly failed to address husbandry standards, instead leaving ourselves completely vulnerable to the imposition of bans on keeping and misguided legislation informed only by the fanatics who are the only groups organized enough to exert influence.

    In general, American keepers rarely bother to follow what's going on with proposed laws, much less offer public comment on pending legislation or make regular donations to support USARK. They just complain after the laws get passed.

    Yes, I am frustrated and a little angry. I am sick to death of being accused (not here - in other settings) of being some sort of anthropomorphizing animal rights nut because I advocate for providing snakes with large, environmentally complex and enriching habitats. I'm tired of the crew that gets defensive and refuses to accept the idea that maybe we should change the generally accepted standards for keeping, and who reject change because minimalistic rack systems are more convenient and cost-effective for them. I'm tired of being accused of being a mindless sheep who wants government control when I say that based on what I've seen among legislators, we as keepers should consider implementing mentoring/permit systems for some reptiles in order to prevent outright bans.

    Articles like the one the OP linked, and the current scattered incidents of legislation and local ordinances that result in irrational bans and restrictions are just the tip of the iceberg. I do a lot of work in other settings to try to ensure that things don't get worse for us as keepers, but honestly, based on the longstanding resistance I've encountered to any hint that maybe we need to attend to matters in our own house before someone else does, I'm not optimistic.

    Rant over.
    Last edited by Caitlin; 09-29-2021 at 04:25 AM.
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  5. #13
    BPnet Lifer EL-Ziggy's Avatar
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    Re: Are we keeping our snakes improperly, a study on snake housing.

    There’s plenty of room for various methods and happy mediums. I don’t care if you use minimalistic tubs or room size enclosures. As long as your animals aren’t being abused or neglected then do what works best for you and your critters and be happy. We should also respect the rights and beliefs of others that think and operate differently. Live by your standards and let others do the same. ✌🏾❤️
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