Thoughts On Identifying This Multi-Gene Clutch?

[DiablosWolf]

I'm a little unsure about this clutch when it comes to these BEL look-alikes. Pairing was a Coral Glow Spider Ghost x Super Pastel Champagne Paradox. I got 4 babies in the clutch that mostly look solid white outside of some faint orange stamping on the body. Heads are completely clean, not a bit of color or pattern. Blue hue on the eyes. They seem to resemble most of what I can find on Coral Glow Banana Pastel combos, but then some seem entirely solid orange. One of them shed out today so I included pics of her and a clutch pic after they all came out of the egg. Is there a way to even tell if the white ones have the spider gene at this point either? Let me know your thoughts.

Thank you!

[nikkubus]

Champagne has some pretty serious variation within the same combo. I'm going to assume your coral glow is a super because that's the only thing that makes sense for these odds.

I think you got all pastel, all coral glow, and the white ones are the 50% chance for champagne. And of course they are all het ghost too. What I'm uncertain on is where the spider went. Some of the champagnes may have it and it just is being hidden by the champagne? To my knowledge champagne and spider don't play well with each other and you would get eggs that failed to produce viable hatchlings. Did you have eggs that didn't fully develop in this clutch?

Edit: unless coral glow and champagne are allelic? in which case you should have some that were neither, but it's not outlandish you "missed" the normal part of the odds.

[DiablosWolf]

Champagne has some pretty serious variation within the same combo. I'm going to assume your coral glow is a super because that's the only thing that makes sense for these odds.

I think you got all pastel, all coral glow, and the white ones are the 50% chance for champagne. And of course they are all het ghost too. What I'm uncertain on is where the spider went. Some of the champagnes may have it and it just is being hidden by the champagne? To my knowledge champagne and spider don't play well with each other and you would get eggs that failed to produce viable hatchlings. Did you have eggs that didn't fully develop in this clutch?

Edit: unless coral glow and champagne are allelic? in which case you should have some that were neither, but it's not outlandish you "missed" the normal part of the odds.

He's produced some odd rather clutches all around for me. He sired two other clutches total for me since i've purchased him, and only thrown one normal out of 3 clutches. All good eggs from all 3 clutches he's sired, not one dud. Total of 19 offspring, and only 1 being a normal. He also threw TWINS for me on one of his clutches, non-identical twins, I got a pastel and a coral glow bumblebee in the same egg. Crazy male.

He was paired to pretty simple stuff, but still unsure with some of the offspring. This clutch in particular threw me for a loop. I've attached pics of his clutches below.

Clutch 1 was the only one with a normal, and that one had 3 unusual spider coral glow combos, completely pastel yellow with a purple colored spider pattern. Not one baby with crazy orange like in clutch 2.
Clutch 2 had two coral glow combos, both extremely orange (even after shedding out they are bright orange) and the spiders have a lot of yellow highlight to them.
Clutch 3 then has the odd white babies.

Wondering if he's got another gene in there somewhere, but no idea what. Included some pics of him below. Visually he looks like what he was sold to me as, but the variety in offspring is unusual.


Clutch 1: Coral Glow Spider Ghost x Pastel



Clutch 2: Coral Glow Spider Ghost x Spider



Clutch 3: Coral Glow Spider Ghost x Super Pastel Champagne Paradox



Sire:

[nikkubus]

Whoa! A full clutch of spiders.

Super Banana is off the table obviously. Maybe the one colorful champagne is pastel champagne, and the rest are banana pastel champagne? Perhaps you can go by the sex, knowing which sex he throws bananas for some assurance? Waiting a bit for first shed for color to develop should help a lot. Crazy just how white those heads are right now though.

[DiablosWolf]

Whoa! A full clutch of spiders.

Super Banana is off the table obviously. Maybe the one colorful champagne is pastel champagne, and the rest are banana pastel champagne? Perhaps you can go by the sex, knowing which sex he throws bananas for some assurance? Waiting a bit for first shed for color to develop should help a lot. Crazy just how white those heads are right now though.

He is a female maker which I found out by breeding him, but he's so far thrown 95%+ female in all the babies. Female maker should really only apply to the CG's. But I will re-sex the most recent clutch when they've eaten in a few weeks, as of right now though it's looking like only 2 males out of 19 babies. I have sexed the first two clutches 2-3 times because I thought it can't be right, and had a buddy of mine sex them as well. But he does indeed throw almost all females regardless. Not that I am complaining, just another weird thing about this male!

One of the orange spider CG babies shed out next to a pastel spider CG's from the other clutch. Assuming the couple of super orange ones are just CG spiders, but i've never had such consistent orange in a CG, they have really reduced head stamps with solid orange and enchi like patterns.

[nikkubus]

If it were me, I'd probe instead of pop again to be 100% because the odds of that many non-CG females thrown from a female maker are pretty astronomical. Anything is possible though!

You are right, that is a really bright orange that covers more area than the usual bright part. Enchi certainly could help accomplish that, and the side pattern seems consistent with enchi. I'm not sure how you would identify whether or not those champagnes had it unless more pattern shows up batter after shed. Maybe black light? Even CG champagne enchi pastel should have a decent amount of color though. This is really a head scratcher.

[DiablosWolf]

If it were me, I'd probe instead of pop again to be 100% because the odds of that many non-CG females thrown from a female maker are pretty astronomical. Anything is possible though!

You are right, that is a really bright orange that covers more area than the usual bright part. Enchi certainly could help accomplish that, and the side pattern seems consistent with enchi. I'm not sure how you would identify whether or not those champagnes had it unless more pattern shows up batter after shed. Maybe black light? Even CG champagne enchi pastel should have a decent amount of color though. This is really a head scratcher.

Thinking fire or enchi is the missing gene? I just pulled these two out to compare. And the spider on the right definitely has another gene at play. Clean sides without spotting in the alien head area, slightly different head stamp with a bright head, bright dorsal with a lot of striping.

[nikkubus]

In my experience, fire is harder to spot early on besides blushing, the color is pretty subtle and then over time it brightens up a lot. I don't really see any blushing in the darker areas drastic enough on non-spiders to think it's that. Enchi is a lot more likely. From what I can see of the sides of the heads, some of them do have the tell tale enchi face stripe, but I would feel more confident if I saw particular ones from the side of the face. The second pic of the sire, he seems to have extremely thin dark stripe under the eye like an enchi would have. The past two sets, are you able to get a side by side comparison of that part?

See on this pic how the lighter stripes even seem to connect over the eye? https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/584163

It's less drastic in non-spider enchi, but it still thickens the lighter stripe over the eye compared to a non-enchi.

[DiablosWolf]

In my experience, fire is harder to spot early on besides blushing, the color is pretty subtle and then over time it brightens up a lot. I don't really see any blushing in the darker areas drastic enough on non-spiders to think it's that. Enchi is a lot more likely. From what I can see of the sides of the heads, some of them do have the tell tale enchi face stripe, but I would feel more confident if I saw particular ones from the side of the face. The second pic of the sire, he seems to have extremely thin dark stripe under the eye like an enchi would have. The past two sets, are you able to get a side by side comparison of that part?

See on this pic how the lighter stripes even seem to connect over the eye? https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/584163

It's less drastic in non-spider enchi, but it still thickens the lighter stripe over the eye compared to a non-enchi.

I'll get the spiders out again and see about getting some side shots of the face, as well as some of the other odd babies.

[DiablosWolf]

In my experience, fire is harder to spot early on besides blushing, the color is pretty subtle and then over time it brightens up a lot. I don't really see any blushing in the darker areas drastic enough on non-spiders to think it's that. Enchi is a lot more likely. From what I can see of the sides of the heads, some of them do have the tell tale enchi face stripe, but I would feel more confident if I saw particular ones from the side of the face. The second pic of the sire, he seems to have extremely thin dark stripe under the eye like an enchi would have. The past two sets, are you able to get a side by side comparison of that part?

See on this pic how the lighter stripes even seem to connect over the eye? https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...pythons/584163

It's less drastic in non-spider enchi, but it still thickens the lighter stripe over the eye compared to a non-enchi.

Lighter Spider -




Darker Spider -




And a close up on the head for one of the mystery champagne babies, still no head pattern that I can see. They seem to have very faint yellow dorsal striping with faint patching dripping down from the dorsal in spots. -