1st Year Hobby Breeder and My Clutches Keep Going GREEN and BAD! Help?

[208ss]

Hey Guys,

I'll get right to the point.

TLDR: My eggs are turning green and going bad in my first 2 clutches. Pics below.

I had my first clutch in May. I was super excited. Cin Pin x Cin Pin.

I pulled 5 white (and sort of bumpy) eggs and 1 slug. Candled them and saw veins.

Placed them in a Tupperware shoebox, pearlite with water (followed a ration I found online) on a light diffuser. All the standard operating procedures you see online.

Because the clutch was a surprise, I made a homemade incubator out of a cooler filled with water bottles and a large heateR placed between the layers of water bottles.

One by one per the next few weeks they all started turning green and going bad.

Okay, I thought. Maybe they weren't actually fertile.

Just had my second clutch and these eggs actually look really bright clean white and candle with some nice veins.

Follow same procedure but this time I try vermiculite instead of pearlite.

Go in the other day and now another egg from that clutch is going bad. The rest still look good though.

It's really heart breaking TBH because you only get 1 shot every year or two per animal.

IDK what I'm doing wrong here. I have read and read and read and researched and watched hours of YouTube and I'm following all of the basic, known parameters, verifying temp and humidity, using clean tubs and fresh substrate ect.

The one thing I will say, I have noted heavy condensation on the flex seal when I go to check on them and it was obvious that some water was dripping on both clutches. not a Ton, but some they did have water marks particularly on the top egg.

I placed paper towels over them to try and remedy this.

Other than that I can't contemplate what I'm doing outside of the parameters.

Any ideas on what I can change or at least what is going on?


PICS:

FIRST CLUTCH A FEW WEEKS IN WITH EGGS STARTING TO GO BAD.




FIRSRT CLUTCH STILL GOING BAD (EVENTUALLY THEY ALL WENT)




SECOND CLUTCH THE DAY I PUT THEM IN. (6/7)





SECONF CLUTCH ABOUT 18 DAYS LATER. (CURRENT STATE)

[Lord Sorril]

Welcome to the Forum!

Excluding that one bad egg your second clutch looks fine so far!

Some thoughts on the first clutch:

1. How soon after they were laid were they collected?
Sometimes the mother can shift the eggs out of position and mortality increases.

2. Where is the thermostat probe in your incubator?
My incubators suffer a range of temperatures at different spots. Probe placement is critical, the type of thermostat will also necessitate proper probe placement and adjusted temperature setting.

3. What type of thermostat are you using: on/off or proportional?
If you are using on/off and setting it to 89F then you could have serious temperature swings as the heating pad repeatedly overshoots its target.

4. What is the ambient temperature around the incubator?
We had several heat waves in my area the last few weeks: I had to use an AC unit in my room and leave the door to my time lapse incubator open to lower the temperature.

5. It could be a trick of the light: Does your pearlite look brown in the photo?
I was expecting bright white. Some garden supplies sneak in additives. I personally don't trust vermiculite.

If all of these factors are fine, then you might just have bad luck. Of course there are smaller factors that might cost you an egg or two from each clutch: (e.g. tap water vs. distilled water, prior disinfection of the egg bin, etc.), but, I have not seen these wipe out an entire clutch.

[nikkubus]

When you did the ratios did you do it by weight? I do 1:1 by weight. I do get condensation in my clutch boxes, but not enough that the eggs look soaked or water is pooling. If you squeeze the vermiculite, water should not drip out.

For the clutch you still have, I would lightly dust the eggs with athletes foot. If the vermiculite is more wet than it should be, I would prepare a new batch and dry off the tub.

When you say flex seal, do you mean press and seal? So there is an air tight seal on the tub the eggs are in? I have had the best luck with a sealed container, rather than one with ventilation and trying to maintain the correct humidity from water in the incubator but I know some people do it like that and it works fine.

Was the tub, light diffuser, and vermiculite sterile? When you have a warm, damp, dark environment, mold is going to grow like crazy if there is something to set it off.

Sometimes fertile eggs go bad despite doing everything right because something goes wrong in development, and getting the bad egg out quickly can prevent the rest from going bad. This is a lot easier to do if you separate the eggs when they are laid. Once the mold is growing, trying to remove the bad egg from a bunch is going to send mold spores flying around, so treating it with fungal powder is probably your best bet. For the future, you might get some liquid skin to have on hand, try your best to separate them without tearing them, and if there is a small accidental tear, the liquid skin can help is seal up. Slowly and gently for best results trying to get them apart. If you catch them quick enough after being laid, they might not be stuck together at all yet, but you risk stressing mom out badly and causing egg binding if she isn't fully done. Olympus reptiles has a good video on youtube about how to get the eggs apart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5asswS3kIwI

Sorry you are having a rough start to breeding. Sometimes it takes making some mistakes before you can get it just right. Hopefully whatever is causing the problem, you can pinpoint and correct before the rest of the eggs go bad, but if not, don't beat yourself up. Practice makes perfect.

[KMG]

In the cooler you are using do you have an air exchange?

[Bogertophis]

Condensation- water dripping on the eggs- can & will drown them. You MUST always prevent that from happening.

"I placed paper towels over them to try and remedy this." I don't see how soggy paper towels will help either- maybe you can angle the flex-seal so the water drips off to one side & never on the eggs.

Sad as it is, eggs may go bad for so many reasons...it's part of the breeding game, but you're right to seek to correct what you can. Good luck, the second clutch looks good so far...with one exception, of course.

[208ss]

Welcome to the Forum!

Excluding that one bad egg your second clutch looks fine so far!

Some thoughts on the first clutch:

1. How soon after they were laid were they collected?
Sometimes the mother can shift the eggs out of position and mortality increases.

I cannot confirm this for sure, It could have been 1-4 days as I usually feed and clean on Sundays and wasn't expecting. clutch so I didn't check until Thursday and found them.

Also, I noticed she left the clutch on her own. I was expecting her to be bound tight to them and be super aggressive but she left them and was halfway across the tub.

2. Where is the thermostat probe in your incubator?
My incubators suffer a range of temperatures at different spots. Probe placement is critical, the type of thermostat will also necessitate proper probe placement and adjusted temperature setting.

I taped it to the wall about 6 inches from the actual box. I have checked using a digital thermometer the inside and outside and egg temp and they are all always 87-89.

3. What type of thermostat are you using: on/off or proportional?
If you are using on/off and setting it to 89F then you could have serious temperature swings as the heating pad repeatedly overshoots its target.

I'm us using a decent exoterra. I believe it is their 600w version.

4. What is the ambient temperature around the incubator?
We had several heat waves in my area the last few weeks: I had to use an AC unit in my room and leave the door to my time lapse incubator open to lower the temperature.

Typically 70 degrees. In basement and temp is pretty constant for that reason.

5. It could be a trick of the light: Does your pearlite look brown in the photo?
I was expecting bright white. Some garden supplies sneak in additives. I personally don't trust vermiculite.

IT was bright white when I used the pearlite and the vermiculite is obviously the brown one.

If all of these factors are fine, then you might just have bad luck. Of course there are smaller factors that might cost you an egg or two from each clutch: (e.g. tap water vs. distilled water, prior disinfection of the egg bin, etc.), but, I have not seen these wipe out an entire clutch.

Thanks for the feedback.

[208ss]

When you did the ratios did you do it by weight? I do 1:1 by weight. I do get condensation in my clutch boxes, but not enough that the eggs look soaked or water is pooling. If you squeeze the vermiculite, water should not drip out.

YEs it was 1:1. Also did the squeeze test.

For the clutch you still have, I would lightly dust the eggs with athletes foot. If the vermiculite is more wet than it should be, I would prepare a new batch and dry off the tub.

When you say flex seal, do you mean press and seal? So there is an air tight seal on the tub the eggs are in? I have had the best luck with a sealed container, rather than one with ventilation and trying to maintain the correct humidity from water in the incubator but I know some people do it like that and it works fine.

Press and seal yes, not flex seal lol. I misspoke. When you say sealed container you mean an airtight container? With the pad around there rim.

Was the tub, light diffuser, and vermiculite sterile? When you have a warm, damp, dark environment, mold is going to grow like crazy if there is something to set it off.

I can't say it was 100% steric but it was all new.

Sometimes fertile eggs go bad despite doing everything right because something goes wrong in development, and getting the bad egg out quickly can prevent the rest from going bad. This is a lot easier to do if you separate the eggs when they are laid. Once the mold is growing, trying to remove the bad egg from a bunch is going to send mold spores flying around, so treating it with fungal powder is probably your best bet. For the future, you might get some liquid skin to have on hand, try your best to separate them without tearing them, and if there is a small accidental tear, the liquid skin can help is seal up. Slowly and gently for best results trying to get them apart. If you catch them quick enough after being laid, they might not be stuck together at all yet, but you risk stressing mom out badly and causing egg binding if she isn't fully done. Olympus reptiles has a good video on youtube about how to get the eggs apart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5asswS3kIwI

Sorry you are having a rough start to breeding. Sometimes it takes making some mistakes before you can get it just right. Hopefully whatever is causing the problem, you can pinpoint and correct before the rest of the eggs go bad, but if not, don't beat yourself up. Practice makes perfect.

Yes, it was a bit go an ego punch too because my kids and wife who have seen me invest considerably into this project are now skeptical about my success. They love me and treat me right but as with all endeavors either you deliver the goods or people doubt you until you do. I will persevere.

Do you think I should surgically remove that bad egg? like cut it off with a razor. I imagine that's gonna small great.

or just dust it and leave it?

- - - Updated - - -

In the cooler you are using do you have an air exchange?

I do not believe so no. Should I?

[208ss]

- - - Updated - - -

Condensation- water dripping on the eggs- can & will drown them. You MUST always prevent that from happening.

"I placed paper towels over them to try and remedy this." I don't see how soggy paper towels will help either- maybe you can angle the flex-seal so the water drips off to one side & never on the eggs.

Sad as it is, eggs may go bad for so many reasons...it's part of the breeding game, but you're right to seek to correct what you can. Good luck, the second clutch looks good so far...with one exception, of course.

I have been thinking about this too but I don't see how I can create a proper seal from the press and seal if I angle it and it would certainly prevent me from using the lid which aids in maintaining temperature consistency.

How would you approach that?

[bcr229]

I have been thinking about this too but I don't see how I can create a proper seal from the press and seal if I angle it and it would certainly prevent me from using the lid which aids in maintaining temperature consistency.

How would you approach that?

Put the press and seal on the egg tub.

Put a dime on top of the press and seal in one corner of the egg tub where you don't have the eggs to make a low point, then put the lid on the egg tub. The water that condenses on the press and seal should flow to the low point before dripping off. Right now the water is probably running to the center of the press and seal and then dripping straight onto the eggs.

[Bogertophis]

- - - Updated - - -



I have been thinking about this too but I don't see how I can create a proper seal from the press and seal if I angle it and it would certainly prevent me from using the lid which aids in maintaining temperature consistency.

How would you approach that?

How about just tilting the whole container? With stability, of course- basically put something under one end so everything, including the plastic wrap, has a slight angle. Drips should then run off, ya? Or do as bcr229 just suggested...more than one way to do this, but you sure don't want to keep drowning the eggs.