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  1. #1
    BPnet Veteran WrongPython's Avatar
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    Feeding growing carpets

    Question for the seasoned Morelia folks around here: about how long did your young carpets stay on small prey items, ie. hopper mice and rat pinks?

    I'm asking because I've finally decided to splurge on some non-rodent prey items and am playing economics as I order snake food for the rest of the year. In particular, I'm deciding whether or not to order a bag of 40 8-12 g Reptilinks (roughly the size of a hopper mouse/rat pink) or 24 16-20 g links (roughly the size of a small mouse/fuzzy rat) to go with the 20 hopper mice and 25 similarly-sized baby quail I have/will have on hand.

    In other words, would it be wiser to order smaller prey items for now, or larger prey items for later this year?

    Some tidbits for those of you know the snake(s) this concerns: Pandora the Papuan is currently ~55g and ~2'3" long at 8 months old. Kuzco the longicauda boa will be partaking in the same prey items as her given his present size and growth rate (he's ~120g and 2'3" at 20 months old).

    Thanks in advance! Do feel free to share any other advice you have for feeding young carpets if you're so inclined.
    0.1 Sonoran Boa sigma​: "Adelita" ('19 Hypo het. leopard)
    1.0 Boa imperator longicauda: "Kuzco" ('19 het. anery)
    0.1 West Papuan Morelia spilota​: "Pandora" ('20)

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  3. #2
    BPnet Lifer dakski's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Wrongpython,

    Congrats on your new beauty!

    I have no experience with reptilinks, and come from the "old school" where whole prey items are good enough.

    I do believe in supplements and variety for lizards, but my lizards rarely eat rodents (Frank the BTS gets an occasional pink or fuzzy) and the Leachie gets a variety of gel food as does the Chewie, with insects supplemented. So the vitamins and calcium help because they aren't eating as nutritious prey as my snakes and they also are different creatures and have different metabolisms, lighting needs, etc.

    For snakes, I've seen them live long and healthy lives on a rodent only diet. To be clear, I have nothing against reptilinks, I just know little about them, and wouldn't surprised if you do not get a CP to eat them.

    I like the idea of variety for your CP such as birds in addition to rodents, however, CP's, similar to BP's, although supposedly not as bad, can imprint on prey items. I got Yafe on rats ASAP and he made the transition seamlessly, and he eats them voraciously. I have not offered other prey to him but I would be interested to see how your girl does with the reptilinks and the quail as a treat. I imagine she will love the avian prey and would offer it as a treat, not as a regular diet.

    Carpet Pythons can eat meals that are 15-20% of their body weight without issue as long as husbandry, especially temps, are good. I am sure you know, but CP's can handle 90-92F on a basking spot assuming there is a good gradient and a cool side between 78-80F and ambient around 80-84F. Keep in mind, since they climb, you can have the hot spot under an RHP on a perch and have the ground be less.

    I have a UTH and RHP for Yafe on the hot side and it's about 91-92F right below the perch at the peak of the perch and about 87-88F below the back perch where the RHP is in his 4X2X1.5'. He goes back and forth when digesting.

    Getting back to the size of food. I would not feed a boa more than 10% of their body weight in a feeding, even while growing. Currently, Behira (BI) gets about 4-5% of her body weight in medium rats every 2-3 weeks. Yafe gets small rats now which are about 10% of his body weight and he's still growing (he's 840G), but I will be switching to mediums soon. He eats every two weeks except in shed.

    When he was young, he would easily down 17-18% of his body weight in one sitting.

    My point is change your mindset with your new CP as opposed to your boas. Where as boas mean less is more. Carpets mean more is more . They seem to love large meals and do well with them.

    If you want to be safe with a CP, I would aim for 10-15% of body weight in a meal and not more. They will happily grow at this rate.

    Yafe, once healthy (he came to me after fed ex lost him with an RI), was eating 25G +/- rat pups at 180-200G with ease. He could have gone bigger.

    At 55G she will grow quickly on small hopper mice (up to 9 or 10G). I always want to give the most adult prey item I can (without giving too fatty a meal to boas) with all my snakes. An equivalent size rat isn't as nutritious. I fed Yafe mice up to small adult mice and then switched to appropriate sized rats.

    I would also keep in mind that Yafe's growth rate was faster than all my boas. I figure most boas, when fed as less is more, can take 5-6+ years to reach adult size. Carpet pythons can get there in probably 3-4 even if fed appropriately. In general, Yafe is a lot more active then my boas, and spends a lot of time climbing around his perches at night and cruising the tank. My boas wait to ambush most of the time and don't move around too much. So in addition to different metabolisms, I imagine CP's burn more calories as they are more active.

    If from a reputable source and vacuum sealed, rodent prey can last 1 1/2 years before you need to open it. People say 2 years, but I wouldn't feed 2 year old prey and since they are good for about 6 months after opening and transferred into a non-vacuum sealed bag, I open within 1 1/2 years.

    Anyway, I would plan on at least 3 more sizes of prey for her little papuan girl. In 1 1/2 years of growth (from 150G-550G) Yafe went from rat pups to small rats. He is also a smaller species of Carpet, being an IJ and Darwin hybrid. I imagine users who have bigger species of carpet can chime in on growth rate.

    Finally, you will have to warm up your F/T prey in order for a carpet to be enticed to eat it. Follow normal defrosting techniques and then blast with a hairdryer or drop in hot tap water for 30 seconds to a minute, dry off, and then offer. They love a hot meal! Their heat pits are a big part of them getting excited about food. My boas could care less. Same with my corn snakes. They go by smell and taste and I serve all of them at room temp and they do no hesitate. Yafe and Shayna (BP) only go crazy when their heat pits can sense the prey as well.

    Keep us posted and ask away.

    MM4L!

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  5. #3
    BPnet Veteran Toad37's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    You're probably going to get a few different answers here. I for example do not weigh my snakes and I do not feed by weights. I know what they're supposed to look like and I judge it by that.

    Carpets aren't like boas and bps. They can handle a lot bigger meals, digest them faster, and grow faster. You should still be mindful of their weight and body. Don't feed them so much that they get fat. I feed my carpets 1.5-2 times the girth of their body. The age and size of the animal depends on the frequency of feedings.

    Hope this helps.

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  7. #4
    BPnet Veteran Caitlin's Avatar
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    Every snake is different, but for what it's worth, this is the progression for my male JCP. He was hatched 5-31-19. His first meal was a mouse fuzzy, and he ate those until 9/4 when he went to mouse hoppers. He started on a small mouse on 1/14, and then to rat fuzzies on 4/2. For some reason he lost his taste for rats, refused rat pups, and currently prefers a large mouse.

    I have frozen quail on hand thanks to a sometimes-picky Dumeril's so plan on offering him a quail soon. I'm also going to try him again on rats, but am not worried about it either way.
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  9. #5
    BPnet Lifer EL-Ziggy's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Congratulations again on your cool new carpet WP. I agree with all that’s been said with my own little twist. I prefer to feed whole prey items also. Nothing against Reptilinks. I think I probably feed my carpets a little bit heavier than the average keeper, especially when they’re young, and I start dialing them back after they turn two. If your girl is 55g at 8 months she’s probably going to grow pretty fast once you start feeding her more than the breeder did. I wouldn’t buy many small feeders at all. I like to feed a diverse diet and various prey sizes to my snakes. For a 55g carpet I’d buy a few small mice (12-18g) and a few rat fuzzys (10-19g) and try alternating between the two. Only one of my carpets has a preference for mice. The others eat anything. You can feed the smaller ones first and work your way up. Throw in some chicks and quail as they grow. Best wishes with the new girl!
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  11. #6
    BPnet Senior Member jmcrook's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongPython View Post
    Question for the seasoned Morelia folks around here: about how long did your young carpets stay on small prey items, ie. hopper mice and rat pinks?

    I'm asking because I've finally decided to splurge on some non-rodent prey items and am playing economics as I order snake food for the rest of the year. In particular, I'm deciding whether or not to order a bag of 40 8-12 g Reptilinks (roughly the size of a hopper mouse/rat pink) or 24 16-20 g links (roughly the size of a small mouse/fuzzy rat) to go with the 20 hopper mice and 25 similarly-sized baby quail I have/will have on hand.

    In other words, would it be wiser to order smaller prey items for now, or larger prey items for later this year?

    Some tidbits for those of you know the snake(s) this concerns: Pandora the Papuan is currently ~55g and ~2'3" long at 8 months old. Kuzco the longicauda boa will be partaking in the same prey items as her given his present size and growth rate (he's ~120g and 2'3" at 20 months old).

    Thanks in advance! Do feel free to share any other advice you have for feeding young carpets if you're so inclined.
    I'll preface by saying that I am by no means a seasoned Morelia veteran. I will say that I have probably fed much on the lighter side that my carpets can handle during the time I've had them until just recently. Very likely a result of being gun shy after having a pair of retics that I fed the absolute fricken bejesus out of to combat their absurd face pushing shenanigans, but that's another discussion entirely... I also got into Boas before carpets and my mindset regarding Boa feeding greatly impacted my opinion of a substantial meal for a carpet.

    My Morelia have all started with me at weights between 29-92grams and were being fed on very different schedules with each breeder. Youngest (rockhampton coastal from Michael Pennell) arrived at 7months and 29 grams, was fed all through her first winter here every 5-7 days on mice pinks and then fuzzies, hoppers, and so on. Second smallest (male brisbane, also MPENN) arrived at 11 months and 53grams on rat pinks at that time. Female brisbane was close to 2yrs and on weaned mice according to Nick (very small for age in my opinion but in great health). Last addition (maternally incubated jungle) was 65grams and 7 months on arrival and eating small rat pups/large fuzzies according to Mike Curtin.

    Since about last summer all have been fed about every 7-10-14days or so with a 2 month fast over the last winter from November through December. It will be longer and scheduled differently next winter.

    I have recently begun to start really pushing the envelope for all Morelia critters here in terms of prey size, though the frequency will remain in the 10-14 realm and ramp up during late summer/early fall, then taper back off for winter fasting and cool period.

    I'll echo what Ziggy said about ordering less smaller feeders. They can move through prey sizes pretty quick. I've had a ton of leftover small size feeders that I've either had to offer multiples of or forego entirely after a certain point. These are not Boas and can handle a very substantial meal, but don't offer anything silly huge. My recent post of my male brisbane taking a weaned rat really put into perspective how well they handle what you think might be a huge meal until you see it in their bellies. I have some serious puzzles to solve before making my next feeder order as all of my Morelia are <1-3yrs in range and have substantial growing to do as well as my two boas.

    I hope to get everyone on small/medium rats sooner than later for ease of ordering and also to begin buying diverse prey items of similar size that can be offered to all the animals I keep. I hope to offer rodent (rats and perhaps small rabbits on occasion) and avian prey (quail is my primary idea) and possibly repti links, but we'll see.

    It's worth noting that I aim to maintain my animals less on the max size of their genetic growth potential. While I certainly will not be starving any of them, I will also not be pressing them for maximum sizes for their respective species or localities. In Nick's direct words to me regarding male Morelia of all species, "Once they're as big around as a quarter they're adults, can breed, and don't need to be any bigger." Also in his words, "The giant 14' coastals you hear about are invariably males. Females are larger on average, but the giant carpets are almost always males."

    This got a little ramble-y and scattered, but the short of it is don't be hesitant to offer larger prey sooner than later. Carpets are stretchy and can take it.

    !!MORELIA MAFIA 4 LIFE!!

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  13. #7
    BPnet Veteran WrongPython's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Wow, thanks for all the responses y'all! They're really quite helpful.

    It looks like ordering some of the 16-20g links would be the best option. Unfortunately, when I tried to put in an order for some baby quail and the said links, I was just shy of the $75 threshold required for shipping, so that plan's off for now. In the event I manage to get ahold of any links in the future I'll be sure to share my experience here.

    A few notes on my feeding plans for Pandora, if anyone's interested: for now, the plan is to offer one hopper mouse every 10-14 days, with a light dusting of the Arcadia EarthPro-A supplement every third meal or so if she's not averse. I'm not planning on feeding her anything more that 15% of her body weight until I can get her under a more intense heat source like a deep heat projector, at which point I may offer her larger meals up to 20% of her body weight. (I have a suspicion that more penetrating heat like IR-A and IR-B are better for snake digestion than the IR-C produced by things like heat mats, CHEs, and RHPs, so I plan on testing that out in a few months). There are already some 12-18g small mice in the freezer for her for when it's time to bump up -- at the glacial rate Kuzco is growing, she'll be needing them before he does, so they're all hers. Feedings will probably be a little spaced out more at that point.
    0.1 Sonoran Boa sigma​: "Adelita" ('19 Hypo het. leopard)
    1.0 Boa imperator longicauda: "Kuzco" ('19 het. anery)
    0.1 West Papuan Morelia spilota​: "Pandora" ('20)

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    BPnet Lifer dakski's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Sounds good to me WP!

    Keep us posted!

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    BPnet Lifer dakski's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Wrongpython, I just thought of this.

    You are going to have to change your username to something like "Rightpython" now. .

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  19. #10
    BPnet Veteran WrongPython's Avatar
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    Re: Feeding growing carpets

    Update: a Local Snake Friend offered to go in on the order with me, so quail and Mega-Blend links will soon be on the menu!

    Adelita will actually get to take the first few links, since they're of proper for her and she needs to start getting a taste for something other than (relatively) fatty rodent. I'll be sure to reserve some links for Pandora, though, who can start getting quail once she's eating hopper mice reliably here.

    Edit: haha, maybe a screen name change would be in order some time soon. Don't want to imply there's something wrong with my girl! IDK what else to go with, though, and part of me does like the inside joke it stems from.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by WrongPython; 03-13-2021 at 05:13 PM.
    0.1 Sonoran Boa sigma​: "Adelita" ('19 Hypo het. leopard)
    1.0 Boa imperator longicauda: "Kuzco" ('19 het. anery)
    0.1 West Papuan Morelia spilota​: "Pandora" ('20)

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