Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)

[Ball_Pythons4life]

This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately...

Pretty sure it matters if the snake were to die, as it was a $25,000 dollar pinstripe

[bns]

Pretty sure it matters if the snake were to die, as it was a $25,000 dollar pinstripe

How many times can you replace that $25,000 snake in 5 years? I'd burn that 25k for the return over 5 years all day, everyday.

[jmcrook]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000511317157
Listening currently. Most recent installment of Morelia Python Radio is on snake digestion with Dr. Zac Loughman. Almost certain to be no mention of daily feeding for any reason. Will report back if I hear that mentioned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ball_Pythons4life]

How many times can you replace that $25,000 snake in 5 years? I'd burn that 25k for the return over 5 years all day, everyday.

huh, you'd waste the life of that snake just for money???


But to be fair you do have a point

[bns]

But to be fair you do have a point

Unfortunately...

[Bogertophis]

I'm unsure what you disagree with...I completely understand what different reasons are involved and I know what the motivating factors are. I know exactly what money does... Money blurs the truth, the goals, the results, the give a damns and all the 'ifs'.


He can't see any negative effects of what will happen in the future...Since we don't know the future long term results, there is no answer to the ifs.


This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately... The motivation is known, the goal has been met and the long term results (ifs) will only carry as much weight as the ethics of the human involved. -And nothing against the breeder (I've never heard of him before this) but when money, ethics and humans are combined... I know how I'd place my bet.

You make some very good points...money is a pretty big motivator & all too often does a fine job of squashing ethics, & personally, I'll always feel better trying to duplicate the way things happen in the natural world. Of course, that also means I prefer what nature creates when it comes to genetics- While I cannot deny the "eye-candy" factor, in my gut I'm just not a fan of "morphs" & all that breeding for colors that don't exist & wouldn't survive in the wild, in part because in our crowded world there is a very real risk of losing those wild populations for all time. I'm just not comfortable saying 'natural selection' got it wrong & spending all our time going down that rabbit hole of "prettier" snakes that are actually genetic defects. There is a reason for how snakes evolved in the wild, how they eat & survive, and for how they look.

[Bogertophis]

Here is another great interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAoIatca6M

Time and time again you will hear experts, that not only breed, but go into the field and study various species reiterate the fact that over feeding leads to the early demise of captive snakes.

Nick drives the point home here. Listen to how long his snakes live. Listen to how he keeps his animals. He breeds a multitude of species, including royals. You will not hear him mention rapidly increasing an animals size for the snake of breeding it.

There is no mention of daily feeding here.

The emphasis, whether you hear it here or not, is on seasonality and lessons learned from field studies. Understanding your animal on a biological level is very important.

Size does not equate to maturity, and "big" should not "green light" breeding. At least not healthy breeding over the long haul.

I've spoken to Nick several times, sometimes for hours over the phone. He calls himself a nerd because he knows so much about reptiles.

He is the real deal. He goes into the field he studies the various species, he reads studies already conducted and he puts his findings into practice.

Vin Russo is like minded and a friend of Nick's.

People can choose to do what they want, but with all of the evidence proving longevity in snakes is related to proper feeding in captivity and other obvious factors, I tend to see daily feeding as a disaster in the making over time.

Thanks for sharing that interesting & intense link. And btw, he also talks about how morphs are defects & often linked with other defects as well (some of which don't support survival). It's a long listen, but worthwhile, as he touches on lots of things- including the notion that many of our captive-bred snakes are becoming "domesticated".

[Hugsplox]

This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately... The motivation is known, the goal has been met and the long term results (ifs) will only carry as much weight as the ethics of the human involved. -And nothing against the breeder (I've never heard of him before this) but when money, ethics and humans are combined... I know how I'd place my bet.

A lot of really good points here bns. Money is a powerful motivator, and I don't mean to come off as saying that the breeder had motivations that didn't include money. I'm not saying the experts that have been cited, or the statements made are wrong, I just don't feel comfortable saying that Wilbanks has done anything wrong. I think the purpose of this thread was for us to have a more civil conversation about it than Morphmarket did, and even though we've got some differences of opinion, I think we've accomplished that.

Gio and jmcrook have shared a lot of links and names that I've never heard of so I have plenty to read/listen to/watch this evening. I don't disagree with you guys, I just wanted more information and it would appear that I've been given just that. I hope no one took offense to anything that's been said here, personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.

[Bogertophis]

.... personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.

I quite agree-it can really help to talk things out as a "community" since we all have somewhat different perspectives as well as back-up information to share. I know I sure don't have all the answers, but together there's a lot of experience shared here plus links to still more, so that's a win for us all.

[bns]

A lot of really good points here bns. Money is a powerful motivator, and I don't mean to come off as saying that the breeder had motivations that didn't include money. I'm not saying the experts that have been cited, or the statements made are wrong, I just don't feel comfortable saying that Wilbanks has done anything wrong. I think the purpose of this thread was for us to have a more civil conversation about it than Morphmarket did, and even though we've got some differences of opinion, I think we've accomplished that.

Gio and jmcrook have shared a lot of links and names that I've never heard of so I have plenty to read/listen to/watch this evening. I don't disagree with you guys, I just wanted more information and it would appear that I've been given just that. I hope no one took offense to anything that's been said here, personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.

Wrong?...now where are you trying to take this?

I've enjoyed the discussion and wish I could convey in cold text how the discussion would go face to face.