Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)

[Bogertophis]

... I scanned it quick and am not part of that forum but my question was more about the answer, did he give any info as far as lifespan, breeding rates long term, any issues, any necropsies done and the results? Does he still have those males even?

It's interesting that people feel feeding them daily is ok if they are willing, but breeding females young isn't because then you get fewer eggs long term, so it's not really about what the animal is willing to do at all, it's solely the dollar factor. I can't speak from that regard, I don't breed and I wouldn't breed for money if I did as it's not my interest.

My impression (& I might be wrong?) was that this "experiment" is fairly recent- ie. there is no data yet to be had as far as any possible influence on longevity for the snakes, so that's an obvious reason why he didn't answer this...because he couldn't yet determine long term effects, if any? BPs can live a very long time- into their 40's, but they mostly don't. And unless you did a really big study (with many more animals), it would be hard to tell what other factors were also involved, wouldn't it? Snakes longevity might well be related to their fancy morphs too, or something in the air or water where they're raised, or any number of other things besides how often they ate when they were hatchlings. And I don't foresee anyone funding such a study, any time soon, do you? Sometimes people just want to share their observations so that the experience of others may add to them in years to come.

I'm also not convinced that it's all about the "dollar factor" & the # of eggs. Female snakes in the wild may well breed earlier, but they sure don't live as long either. For nature, it's about replacing oneself so that some percentage of offspring carries on. When a female snake is pushed into early breeding (whether by human intervention or a persistent male snake in the wild) before she has finished* physically growing, that can impact both her health & the size and # of eggs she can produce. (*I do understand that snakes grow their entire life, but when they reach their optimal adult size their growth slows down- that's what I meant by "finished" growing.) From the snake-breeding I've done, I can tell you there are always some eggs that are bigger, more robust than others, & the snakes that emerge from them tend to be healthier & stronger too. It's not easy trying to raise wimpy, undersized snakes, & in the long run, common sense tells me that the undersized snakes may not do as well- certainly that would be true in the wild. So rather than being about # of eggs (ie. profit), my take on it is that it's all about breeding for the healthiest off-spring AND caring about the health & well-being of the female breeders. That's why when I bred a few snakes in the past, I waited until they were good sized adults, not just barely big enough to get the job done. I wanted to minimize the chance of the females having any trouble, like egg-binding.

[Ball_Pythons4life]

I have had very positive results feeding reptilinks as well and seeing incredible growth rates. Makes sense to me that being so much less taxing on their digestive system, they are able to use a higher percentage of those calories for growth. Getting a BP to eat reptilinks in the first place is not for beginners though. I've done some experimenting with clutch mates where one is fed reptilinks and the other is fed rodents with the same weight, and while my sample size is pretty small, reptilinks has been the clear winner out of each pair I tried.

You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed

[Bogertophis]

You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed

Me too!

[nikkubus]

2. requires less energy to digest their meals
I don't think being in a constant state of digestion uses less energy. Reptiles by design and over millions of years of evolution are wired for feast and famine. Even during the "feasting" period, which is more often than not brought on by seasonal changes, a weekly/daily meal isn't typical.

The way I interpreted that part of the article was not that feeding them more often requires less energy, but that feeding a smaller prey item uses less energy, and the feeding more often increased metabolism and growth potential. I may have misunderstood though. I think a young BP's life naturally lines up with "feast" based on the time of year, and that 6 month mark lines up with the famine. Obviously there are going to be smaller time frames in between with variation.

My impression (& I might be wrong?) was that this "experiment" is fairly recent- ie. there is no data yet to be had as far as any possible influence on longevity for the snakes, so that's an obvious reason why he didn't answer this...because he couldn't yet determine long term effects, if any? BPs can live a very long time- into their 40's, but they mostly don't. And unless you did a really big study (with many more animals), it would be hard to tell what other factors were also involved, wouldn't it? Snakes longevity might well be related to their fancy morphs too, or something in the air or water where they're raised, or any number of other things besides how often they ate when they were hatchlings. And I don't foresee anyone funding such a study, any time soon, do you? Sometimes people just want to share their observations so that the experience of others may add to them in years to come.

I'm also not convinced that it's all about the "dollar factor" & the # of eggs. Female snakes in the wild may well breed earlier, but they sure don't live as long either. For nature, it's about replacing oneself so that some percentage of offspring carries on. When a female snake is pushed into early breeding (whether by human intervention or a persistent male snake in the wild) before she has finished* physically growing, that can impact both her health & the size and # of eggs she can produce. (*I do understand that snakes grow their entire life, but when they reach their optimal adult size their growth slows down- that's what I meant by "finished" growing.) From the snake-breeding I've done, I can tell you there are always some eggs that are bigger, more robust than others, & the snakes that emerge from them tend to be healthier & stronger too. It's not easy trying to raise wimpy, undersized snakes, & in the long run, common sense tells me that the undersized snakes may not do as well- certainly that would be true in the wild. So rather than being about # of eggs (ie. profit), my take on it is that it's all about breeding for the healthiest off-spring AND caring about the health & well-being of the female breeders. That's why when I bred a few snakes in the past, I waited until they were good sized adults, not just barely big enough to get the job done. I wanted to minimize the chance of the females having any trouble, like egg-binding.

I feel like he has been doing this a while before reporting results but it doesn't really say exactly how long so who knows. I can't imagine someone with his reputation staking it all by reporting results after only trying this for a couple years.

You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed

Me too!

They aren't rat sausages exactly, so it's even harder than you are imagining. The smell is quite different between a rat to a rabbit/quail sausage, though you can get pure rabbit ones, I just chose the quail blend for the nutrition profile.

[Bogertophis]

...I feel like he has been doing this a while before reporting results but it doesn't really say exactly how long so who knows. I can't imagine someone with his reputation staking it all by reporting results after only trying this for a couple years...

Oh yeah, I agree. By "fairly recent" I just meant that it wasn't some 40 year (BP lifespan) study. He sure wouldn't have popped this out quickly, but I'd guess maybe 5-7 years or something? It would be nice to actually find out from him though. If anyone's ambitious & contacts him, I hope they share the information here. Now that we're all curious...

[bns]

For a snake to digest a meal it requires a dramatic increase in heart rate. Keeping a snake in a constant state of digestion is taxing and it makes no difference what label is applied (power feeding or not power feeding).

What's going on here was done in the boa morph 'business' a long time ago. During the early years of that mess, there was bragging about results and talk about how there were no long term negative consequences only because the idea of long term was 8 years. After, it was realized that there was an effect even in the first third of a boas life but it still continued. It continued because it was never about the boas best interests...and it continues today just in silence.

It looks to me like the breeder in question got called out because folks wanted to know how litters were being produced so quickly...the rest looks like human nature to me. The first time it was done there was finger crossing and hope -there is no way anyone would convince me that this experiment was started with the snakes best interest in mind...

[Ball_Pythons4life]

For a snake to digest a meal it requires a dramatic increase in heart rate. Keeping a snake in a constant state of digestion is taxing and it makes no difference what label is applied (power feeding or not power feeding).

What's going on here was done in the boa morph 'business' a long time ago. During the early years of that mess, there was bragging about results and talk about how there were no long term negative consequences only because the idea of long term was 8 years. After, it was realized that there was an effect even in the first third of a boas life but it still continued. It continued because it was never about the boas best interests...and it continues today just in silence.

It looks to me like the breeder in question got called out because folks wanted to know how litters were being produced so quickly...the rest looks like human nature to me. The first time it was done there was finger crossing and hope -there is no way anyone would convince me that this experiment was started with the snakes best interest in mind...

Did the increase in heart rate give them a shorter lifespan? we could probably draw a pretty accurate hypothesis about this experiment from that one.

[Hugsplox]

I think everyone has made some really solid points and I'm glad we're all being respectful and friendly discussing this, as that's clearly not quite the way the Morphmarket post went.

I don't think anyone here or on the Morphmarket forums, including the breeder, are trying to claim that this was started with the snake's best interest in mind. Mike hasn't shown me a "pro" other than getting his males to breeding size quicker. For him it's a pro because he's running a business, and regardless of what our feelings are for it, he's trying to make money, the hobby is his livelihood. For me it's not worth trying because I'm not trying to breed anything for pleasure or profit.

Now we can talk about the commodification of animals all we want, and I 100% agree with jmcrook, the animal comes first, our passion and enjoyment second, and the money that can be made way down at the bottom of the list, BUT we're talking about a very big, well known, and well respected breeder who's gotten countless people into the hobby by making these animals easier for them to get, at a price point that's low enough that your average person can afford them. My point in standing up for him is that I think we need to be careful vilifying some of these big breeders especially when states are continuing this practice of banning certain species. There may be a day when Wilbanks is one of the few places that you can get a BP for a reasonable price.

Again, we can debate the ethics of this, but this isn't much different than combining gene after gene after gene with no knowledge of what kind of issues the snake will end up with. I'm sure we've all seen and maybe taken part in the spider gene debate and I don't think that this is at that level yet. At the end of the day, we've all put money into the industry, it's up to us to choose who we do business with based on a variety of reasons including this one.

[Ball_Pythons4life]

In my opinion, when your breeding ball pythons, your either making a livelihood out of it or you're doing for enjoyment. If you are making a living out of breeding, I see no reason why its a problem to try and raise males faster. if you're breeding for fun, there's no reason to breed faster for more profit.

[Gio]

Directly related to the topic.

Starts at 14:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_SHPzzHRDw&t=861s

Here is the feast and famine example I mentioned.

Though Vin says he'll feed them as much as they will eat, it isn't a daily occurrence. He also feeds larger prey, not smaller. My friend Bryan mentioned in another thread a while back that ADULT snakes experience some metabolic and growth changes when graduating to larger prey. Obviously within reasonable limits.

Vin's feeding regime equates to about 10 meals a year according to this broadcast. From this, you can surmise he is not feeding daily.


If you've read his books THE COMPLETE/MORE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR you will read that Vin and Eugene Bassett found boas to grow more when NOT being fed.

This topic relates to royals, but it stands that energy being used to digest cannot be split with energy being used to grow. My personal opinion is that daily feeding will put a constant stress on the system and eventually have negative results no matter how small the meal.

This is why seasonal changes are so important.

There should be some agreement as to how a royal can be fed based on the seasons.

Feeding more frequently at certain times of the year will mimic a more natural pattern.

Put the animal's wellbeing first.