Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)

[Ball_Pythons4life]

https://community.morphmarket.com/t/...ed-sooner/2530

Ok so this is a thread about growing up a bp faster without power feeding. The original thread from this is on morphmarket but I wanted to see your guys's opinions. What Mike Willbank says is that feeding a ball python a 20g meal every day instead of a 100g meal every 5 days will keep the snakes metabolic system revved up and therefore causing it to grow faster, without the harmful side effects of powerfeeding. He tested this out with a baby pinstripe, and his results are as follows,

"I purchased the 70 gram snake in August of that year. He had just hatched. By mid November he was 650 grams and breeding. He produced 10 ovulations that year and I think Brian and most people were shocked that I was competing with him the next season after purchasing the baby. The conventional wisdom had been that I should be breeding him the next year."

There is much controversy in the replies (mainly two people not reading and being toxic.) but Mike says there has been no detrimental effects to his snakes and he only does this until they are breeding size. In fact the snakes grow even faster because the smaller meals require less energy to digest. Id like to see what people here think about this. I personally think that this is an actually good idea as it:

1. Grows the bps up faster so they can breed sooner
2. requires less energy to digest their meals
3. more closely mirrors their feeding in the wild

(KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS WAS ONLY DONE WITH MALES)

[Hugsplox]

I'm gonna preface this by saying I have never bred BPs, I just wanted to comment on this from a normal keeper's standpoint. I'd also like to say that I got my BP from Mike, and I am a huge fan of his business.

I don't see a big issue with this, the only problem I had with what Mike said, was that he hadn't noticed any long term issues. These are 20+ year living snakes, so I'm not sure how long he's been doing this or if he really has the data to back up there being no longevity issues with snakes he's done this with. If I missed him discussing this let me know. I think Mike's problem especially in this back and forth he's having with folks, is that he's the big breeder talking to a bunch of normal hobbyists who don't have the experience he has, so when he responds to them.. it's just not in a way that's conducive to learning.

I like the idea, I think the method works, and obviously Mike isn't going to use it if it was hurting his animals. Mike breeds so many snakes that I trust what he says, and I do not believe for a second regardless of what anyone says that he's putting the money before the animals. That being said, he posted that article for educational/information purposes, and then when questioned he gets defensive, and some of his comments (MOST of the comments actually) aren't value added. So essentially he turns a teaching opportunity into a argument.

In short, I trust Mike, I trust his methods, I don't agree with how he communicated in his responses.

[Ball_Pythons4life]

In short, I trust Mike, I trust his methods, I don't agree with how he communicated in his responses.

Yes I agree, looking at it more closely now, It wasn't the most graceful way to react. (my fault for only reading the first few replies which were the instigating ones)

I can see where hes coming from though, after deciding to share his methods with everyone else and people being outright hostile. Though when your as big of a breeder as that you cant go poking fun at people for watching tv with their snakes.

[Bogertophis]

I don't breed BPs & never will, but I don't doubt that this might (???) be a useful technique- who knows what happens in nature?

Throughout history, anyone thinking "outside the box" tends to get ridiculed by those critics who disbelieve or don't like the new information, especially when it comes to any sort of science, which breeding snakes certainly is. Only time will tell- "don't shoot the messenger" though.

And many people who love & excel at scientific research are not necessarily the same people who excel at "selling" their ideas... Just like the doctors with no "bed-side manner", lol.

Anyway, Mike Wilbanks is not the "scientist" behind the original research, but in breeding & keeping snakes, it doesn't hurt to be open to new ideas- at least until proven wrong. It's obvious that some detractors are jumping to incorrect conclusions- it does take courage to share new ideas, & where would we be as a society if no one ever did?

It also takes real courage to spend $25,000 on a hatchling & then experiment with it. Helps to remember that the snakes eating so often aren't being force to do so, nor are they consuming more than the "usual" amount, & that not all snakes actually cooperated with this.

[Hugsplox]

Anyway, Mike Wilbanks is not the "scientist" behind the original research, but in breeding & keeping snakes, it doesn't hurt to be open to new ideas- at least until proven wrong. It's obvious that some detractors are jumping to incorrect conclusions- it does take courage to share new ideas, & where would we be as a society if no one ever did?

It also takes real courage to spend $25,000 on a hatchling & then experiment with it. Helps to remember that the snakes eating so often aren't being force to do so, nor are they consuming more than the "usual" amount, & that not all snakes actually cooperated with this.

Well said!

Like I said, I've followed Mike for awhile and I have always enjoyed reading/hearing about his experience. I think the issue with the Morphmarket post is just everyone having an opinion and yelling it at once.. so to speak. Versus here where we can all be respectful to each other and discuss.

Also him walking into a random hotel room in Daytona with a $25k cashier's check sounds like the opening to an episode of Narcos

[Bogertophis]

Thinking about natural selection in the wild for a moment: some wild snakes that are fortunate enough to have a steady supply of small meals might actually have more success in breeding & thus ultimately pass on their tendency to do this. I have to wonder how often "nature" is so generous though.

I have no opinion about Mike Wilbanks one way or the other, & I certainly don't think less of him after reading this. I'm all for keeping an open mind- there's so much to learn in life. I don't want to be part of a society (or any other group, ie. herptetoculturists) that doesn't learn new things- that goes through life thinking they already have all the answers & does no further searching.

If people are afraid to share new information to avoid ridicule, that's bad for everyone. Let's not be "those people". At least by discussing things you get more input & are more likely arrive at better information. What if Sir Alexander Fleming never mentioned that accidental mold that appeared to inhibit the growth of the staphylococcus bacteria, for fear he'd be laughed at? (hint, we wouldn't have Penicillin!)

[Ball_Pythons4life]

Thinking about natural selection in the wild for a moment: some wild snakes that are fortunate enough to have a steady supply of small meals might actually have more success in breeding & thus ultimately pass on their tendency to do this. I have to wonder how often "nature" is so generous though.

I have no opinion about Mike Wilbanks one way or the other, & I certainly don't think less of him after reading this. I'm all for keeping an open mind- there's so much to learn in life.

Well said!

[GoingPostal]

Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? I find it pretty gross to experiment on animals solely for the purpose of breeding and making money off them sooner and it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that health, long term or short, is a main concern. Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? I saw it asked on that thread a few times but didn't really see an answer on how old the males have lived or how they are doing now, seems like many suggested they were likely sold off as breeders seem to do quite quickly to move onto the next best thing so was there any true long term info or just they "seem fine", which doesn't tell us anything.

[Bogertophis]

Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? ...Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? ...

In the wild it comes down to luck, & I'm pretty sure that many snakes wouldn't turn down small frequent meals- I just don't think many get the option.

Breeding is much easier on the males body than on females. I personally never bred any snakes younger than 4 years...it only makes sense for the female's body to be bigger & better developed before producing eggs (or having live neonates, for those species that do). I believe Wilbanks said he waits 2-3 years at least, which is typical for those in the business.

[Ball_Pythons4life]

Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? I find it pretty gross to experiment on animals solely for the purpose of breeding and making money off them sooner and it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that health, long term or short, is a main concern. Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? I saw it asked on that thread a few times but didn't really see an answer on how old the males have lived or how they are doing now, seems like many suggested they were likely sold off as breeders seem to do quite quickly to move onto the next best thing so was there any true long term info or just they "seem fine", which doesn't tell us anything.

I don't mean this to be an angry reply, but I have a few problems with this post.

Let me ask you this. If there's a plague of rats and your a snake will you eat a big one and wait another 5 days and eat another big one? How do we know that the feeding regime that seems to be the status quo is right just because it works? Mike Wilbanks wouldn't be this big of a breeder if he didnt do what was in the best interest of his animals, but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator. Its the same thing as being a doctor and liking your job, you're still going to want to get paid. And also "many" is a large exaggeration for the people saying they were getting sold off, as it was only one user

("Of course it’s not forever. Just long enough to make money on them and then sell them to someone else.")

He also says why he only uses this technique on male

("ps…I have found no real advantage to growing females quickly. They will routinely breed at 18 months but I think it is better to wait until they are 2-3 years of age. They seem to have more eggs throughout their lifetimes and grow to an overall larger size if you wait to breed them.")



note: I used a few examples from the original thread.