Live feeding: in-tank or separate tub?

[Cheesenugget]

I keep snakes and pet rats, including 1 that was a feeder rat that we ended up keeping as a pet. The sweetest of the bunch, though shy at first, he licks our hands and enjoys being scratched on the head. Feeder rats make good pets if time and patience to tame is given, they are prone to more health problems but not certainly guaranteed.

I know you feel bad after you released that rat. Until you switch to f/t, please do not do that anymore. Feeder/pet rats are domesticated, not wild. They will die a horrible death out there. Wild rats will attack it for intruding into their territory, dogs will tear it apart, bird of prey will get to it, etc... And if it survives predators, it will die from starvation because they rely on people for shelter and food.

I'm trying to be as civil about this, especially when you make a comment about being an animal lover and you enjoyed giving a live rat to your snake so that you can watch nature takes its course. Feeding live because you have to vs feeding live for entertainment is very different, and to be frank, not much of an animal loving behavior on your part. If you want to see how it's done, go on YouTube and numerous nature channels available for your fun. I fed live, both mice and rats, to my ball python. He was also a picky eater. I also transitioned him to f/t. Not once did I enjoy hearing the scream of that mouse or seeing my snake coil around that rat did I find any pleasure in it. Nothing about the way we keep our snakes in captivity is similar to their native habitat because it's not, no matter how much fake plant and decorations are placed in there. So what you are seeing wouldn't happen in the wild, because in the wild, that rat would have been much smarter (Used to danger and predators), acutely aware of its surrounding, most likely to evade or know to avoid where potential predators are. In other words, an inexperienced captive snake going after a trapped, unexpected rat isn't really a fair fight, is it?

Like I said, I fed live before, so I'm not against it. If done right, the snake could quickly and tight, and the rat is immediately knocked out a dies in seconds. However, if your snake misses, the threat of that rat fighting back goes up, it will bite and scratch, and that rat will suffer slowly before it dies. If your snake is an adult in good health, and there is no urgency to feed her, then wait it out until she takes f/t. Offer every 2-3 weeks. Warm the rat up properly using the hair dryer method.

When you sign up to take in a ball python, it's assumed you had done your research knowing what you are getting into. That also means you are responsible for the rat if she doesn't eat it. Whether or not you see them as pets, or that they are for your entertainment value, treat it humanely. That's what loving animals is about. Be kind.

[dakski]

yes I agree it’s looking like f/t will be easier. My snake is 2 years old and honestly I have no clue how much she weighs but I’m fairly sure she’s over 4 feet and is pretty thick, I have pictures of her in my gallery. She eats medium rats right now and is teetering on needing to move up to large ones, but I’ve noticed there’s a lot of discrepancies with the sizes depending on where I buy my rats from.

She looks healthy to me - weight wise.

Medium rats are about 90-150G. I would not go any bigger than that unless she got unusually huge. I think 99% of owners never have to feed more than a medium rat, and that's generally for very large individuals. My female BP (Shayna) is 8 years old now and about 2KG and about 4 feet +. She eats small rats (60-90G) every 2 weeks in the spring, summer, and fall, and fasts most of the winter while barely losing any weight.

I used to offer her mediums, but she skipped a lot of meals. That might be part of your issue there. Smaller meals generally reduce meal skipping. It doesn't seem to change the snakes that want to fast in the winter, but it tends to make them eat better when they want to eat.

In fact, when Shayna started eating small rats regularly, versus mediums sporadically (1, 2, skip, skip, 1, skip, 1, 2, skip, etc) she will only skip in shed, and went from averaging about 1.7kg to almost 2kg in 2 years. I started this technique thanks to a former moderator on here, who said to try smaller meals every two weeks instead of what I was feeding (medium rats) every 2-3 weeks. Has worked like a charm.

I would consider letting her not eat for a little bit - say another month - and then offering a F/T small rat.


This is my step by step list on defrosting F/T rodents.

Others may do it differently and that's fine. This how I do it and it works for me.


STEPS FOR DEFROSTING F/T RODENTS/PREY

1. Put prey item(s) into appropriate size plastic bag. I use Quart size ziplock bags up to a medium rat. NOTE: Bags are optional. Some people just throw the prey in the water. I like the bags, but you have to squeeze the air out of them.

2. Fill the container/storage box 3/4 of the way with room temp to slightly warm water. If you have a temp gun (which you should, so if you don't, get one), make sure the water is not hotter than 85-90F, or there about.

3. Put F/T prey item(s) in water. Cover (optional) and leave for an hour +/-.

4. After an hour, rotate/flip prey. If in plastic bags, they often will stay on whatever side you put them in on. So if mouse is on left side, turn to right side, etc.

5. Leave for another hour +/- for a TOTAL of about 2 hours (up to medium sized rat - longer if bigger prey).

6. Check that prey is defrosted totally through. Squeeze at different sections of the preys body. Should be cool/room temp to touch, but be soft with no cold spots. If hard (except for bone), in abdomen, for example, or cold, put back in water until room temp and soft.

7. Take prey out of the container/storage box and put aside. THEN FOLLOW STEPS 8-11 OR STEP 12

8. Fill container with hot water from tap. If using temp gun, water temp should be 110-130F, not more.

9. Drop prey item into water for 30 seconds +/-. If multiple prey items, do one at a time. You want each item hot when you offer.

10. Remove (if hot water, with tongs).

11. Dry as best as you can, and is quickly as you can, with paper towels. I dry with paper towels while I am walking from the bathroom where I defrost to the snake tanks. I kind of wrap the prey item up in them. It's ten feet, so by the time I get to the tanks, the prey is drier, but still warm.

12. If not using hot water, use a hairdryer to heat rat so it entices snake

13. Open tank and offer ASAP.

Offer on tongs - NOT WITH HAND!

Wiggle a little to make seem alive to not so much to scare her and do not get in her face with it. Can move around near her, but not on top of her, etc.

She should strike. If not, you can leave for a few hours in the tank and see if she shows interest. Otherwise, remove and try again in two weeks.

Also, offer prey at night with lights dim when BP's naturally hunt.

If you need to know where to get tongs, just let us know. Also, we can advise on a good source of F/T prey if you are interested.

[kalismami]

I keep snakes and pet rats, including 1 that was a feeder rat that we ended up keeping as a pet. The sweetest of the bunch, though shy at first, he licks our hands and enjoys being scratched on the head. Feeder rats make good pets if time and patience to tame is given, they are prone to more health problems but not certainly guaranteed.

I know you feel bad after you released that rat. Until you switch to f/t, please do not do that anymore. Feeder/pet rats are domesticated, not wild. They will die a horrible death out there. Wild rats will attack it for intruding into their territory, dogs will tear it apart, bird of prey will get to it, etc... And if it survives predators, it will die from starvation because they rely on people for shelter and food.

I'm trying to be as civil about this, especially when you make a comment about being an animal lover and you enjoyed giving a live rat to your snake so that you can watch nature takes its course. Feeding live because you have to vs feeding live for entertainment is very different, and to be frank, not much of an animal loving behavior on your part. If you want to see how it's done, go on YouTube and numerous nature channels available for your fun. I fed live, both mice and rats, to my ball python. He was also a picky eater. I also transitioned him to f/t. Not once did I enjoy hearing the scream of that mouse or seeing my snake coil around that rat did I find any pleasure in it. Nothing about the way we keep our snakes in captivity is similar to their native habitat because it's not, no matter how much fake plant and decorations are placed in there. So what you are seeing wouldn't happen in the wild, because in the wild, that rat would have been much smarter (Used to danger and predators), acutely aware of its surrounding, most likely to evade or know to avoid where potential predators are. In other words, an inexperienced captive snake going after a trapped, unexpected rat isn't really a fair fight, is it?

Like I said, I fed live before, so I'm not against it. If done right, the snake could quickly and tight, and the rat is immediately knocked out a dies in seconds. However, if your snake misses, the threat of that rat fighting back goes up, it will bite and scratch, and that rat will suffer slowly before it dies. If your snake is an adult in good health, and there is no urgency to feed her, then wait it out until she takes f/t. Offer every 2-3 weeks. Warm the rat up properly using the hair dryer method.

When you sign up to take in a ball python, it's assumed you had done your research knowing what you are getting into. That also means you are responsible for the rat if she doesn't eat it. Whether or not you see them as pets, or that they are for your entertainment value, treat it humanely. That's what loving animals is about. Be kind.

listen I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I feed live just for my own entertainment...I adopted my snake from someone else who had her eating live her whole life and I have never had a problem until now and I certainly do a lot of research on how to properly take care of my girl, and MOST of the rats she refused have been taken in as pets and are living a cushy life. I’m peeved that you would think I wouldn’t put my snakes needs first when I’ve been spending time talking to people about how I can best get her eating again and am willing to try different options. Feeding live has always worked for me, and getting to see her hunt was an extra bonus because that’s not something I would get to observe in nature. I don’t care to watch a YouTube video about it because I only care to watch MY snake hunt. Thanks for everyone’s help.

[kalismami]

She looks healthy to me - weight wise.

Medium rats are about 90-150G. I would not go any bigger than that unless she got unusually huge. I think 99% of owners never have to feed more than a medium rat, and that's generally for very large individuals. My female BP (Shayna) is 8 years old now and about 2KG and about 4 feet +. She eats small rats (60-90G) every 2 weeks in the spring, summer, and fall, and fasts most of the winter while barely losing any weight.

I used to offer her mediums, but she skipped a lot of meals. That might be part of your issue there. Smaller meals generally reduce meal skipping. It doesn't seem to change the snakes that want to fast in the winter, but it tends to make them eat better when they want to eat.

In fact, when Shayna started eating small rats regularly, versus mediums sporadically (1, 2, skip, skip, 1, skip, 1, 2, skip, etc) she will only skip in shed, and went from averaging about 1.7kg to almost 2kg in 2 years. I started this technique thanks to a former moderator on here, who said to try smaller meals every two weeks instead of what I was feeding (medium rats) every 2-3 weeks. Has worked like a charm.

I would consider letting her not eat for a little bit - say another month - and then offering a F/T small rat.


This is my step by step list on defrosting F/T rodents.

Others may do it differently and that's fine. This how I do it and it works for me.


STEPS FOR DEFROSTING F/T RODENTS/PREY

1. Put prey item(s) into appropriate size plastic bag. I use Quart size ziplock bags up to a medium rat. NOTE: Bags are optional. Some people just throw the prey in the water. I like the bags, but you have to squeeze the air out of them.

2. Fill the container/storage box 3/4 of the way with room temp to slightly warm water. If you have a temp gun (which you should, so if you don't, get one), make sure the water is not hotter than 85-90F, or there about.

3. Put F/T prey item(s) in water. Cover (optional) and leave for an hour +/-.

4. After an hour, rotate/flip prey. If in plastic bags, they often will stay on whatever side you put them in on. So if mouse is on left side, turn to right side, etc.

5. Leave for another hour +/- for a TOTAL of about 2 hours (up to medium sized rat - longer if bigger prey).

6. Check that prey is defrosted totally through. Squeeze at different sections of the preys body. Should be cool/room temp to touch, but be soft with no cold spots. If hard (except for bone), in abdomen, for example, or cold, put back in water until room temp and soft.

7. Take prey out of the container/storage box and put aside. THEN FOLLOW STEPS 8-11 OR STEP 12

8. Fill container with hot water from tap. If using temp gun, water temp should be 110-130F, not more.

9. Drop prey item into water for 30 seconds +/-. If multiple prey items, do one at a time. You want each item hot when you offer.

10. Remove (if hot water, with tongs).

11. Dry as best as you can, and is quickly as you can, with paper towels. I dry with paper towels while I am walking from the bathroom where I defrost to the snake tanks. I kind of wrap the prey item up in them. It's ten feet, so by the time I get to the tanks, the prey is drier, but still warm.

12. If not using hot water, use a hairdryer to heat rat so it entices snake

13. Open tank and offer ASAP.

Offer on tongs - NOT WITH HAND!

Wiggle a little to make seem alive to not so much to scare her and do not get in her face with it. Can move around near her, but not on top of her, etc.

She should strike. If not, you can leave for a few hours in the tank and see if she shows interest. Otherwise, remove and try again in two weeks.

Also, offer prey at night with lights dim when BP's naturally hunt.

If you need to know where to get tongs, just let us know. Also, we can advise on a good source of F/T prey if you are interested.

SO HELPFUL!! Thank you. I will try smaller rats. Her last meal, which was a couple months ago, was a GIANT rat because I was headed out of town and had to feed her before I left (she stayed w someone obvi) and it was all the pet store had...so maybe that is why she started this hunger strike. I feel like everyone on here is 1000x more helpful than the guys at the reptile store...

[Hugsplox]

listen I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I feed live just for my own entertainment...I adopted my snake from someone else who had her eating live her whole life and I have never had a problem until now and I certainly do a lot of research on how to properly take care of my girl, and MOST of the rats she refused have been taken in as pets and are living a cushy life. I’m peeved that you would think I wouldn’t put my snakes needs first when I’ve been spending time talking to people about how I can best get her eating again and am willing to try different options. Feeding live has always worked for me, and getting to see her hunt was an extra bonus because that’s not something I would get to observe in nature. I don’t care to watch a YouTube video about it because I only care to watch MY snake hunt. Thanks for everyone’s help.

I don't think anyone thinks you're a bad person or anything for what you said, I'm sure it was just misunderstood. People on this forum have one big thing in common and that's our love of animals, so sometimes passions run a little high, and I hope you won't take anything anyone said as a shot against you. We're just trying to give you the best advice we can while also correcting issues that you had prior to joining us here. Sometimes we just don't do a good job communicating our advice as friendly as we should.

You've gotten a ton of fantastic advice here and now it's up to you to put it into practice and find what's best for your animal. Like I said before, I feed live, and I will continue to do so because that's what works best for my BP. Live feeding isn't for every owner/snake, for example my hognoses won't eat live and prefer F/T but live is what the BP prefers, so live is what he'll continue to get. This isn't to say that I won't make the switch eventually, because personally I enjoy nothing about the live feeding process other than the fact that my snake has eaten, but for now I have a good system in place, and have no reason to change anything.