Brooks Kingsnake strange digestion and behavior? (diarrhea and biting himself)

[Bogertophis]

FYI- I've kept many king snakes in the past (bred some too). I'm primarily a colubrid-keeper, & mostly rat snakes, some of which are 7' long with formidable appetites. I never get bit by them, even though I feed them in their homes- there is no confusion on their part, because I know how to make it clear to them that it's not feeding time- by using their best senses. Most colubrids (kings or rat snakes, etc) are scent-driven, so I give them MY scent thru the screen tops of their enclosures- they back up, they generally "get it". Touch is also a way of re-affirming your identity, but impractical since you'll be within range of being grabbed, UNLESS you use a tool (like your snake hook, if you have one, or a similar item with a long reach & nothing sharp or unsafe in case the snake grabs it- some do!) to touch/pet them first. This is called "tap training" by some here, & is effectively used by some keepers too- it's just another way of signaling your snake.

If you have a really hungry snake that's still not getting the right signal, I sometimes also use a spritz of cool water to their face to totally "change the channel"- it may seem "rude" but so is getting bitten, lol, & snakes get rained on in the real world...a gentle spray of water hurts nothing- & suddenly they know to back off, it works like a charm. I have a pump-spray bottle of water (at room temperature) always ready as a tool, even though I seldom need it for anything other than a humidity bump for some of my snakes. BTW, I currently live with 19 snakes, but in the past, I lived many years with WAAAAAAY more than that, just saying. Oh, and I've even had snakes that will drink from my spray bottle if they happen to be thirsty, so that's how much it really doesn't bother them to get a spray.

[mopuim]

I only have 2 snakes, and feeding them in separate containers has always been fine to me. The main reason I move them is because of substrate, and I know that can be done with a cover or something to protect them from it. They know when they're about to eat as far as I know when they are put in their containers. They hardly bite, and my king is only biting because he is not feeling well. Besides that, he's only bit me once when he was a yearling or so. I appreciate the advice, but that is not what worries me the most, unless I am ignorant.

[Bogertophis]

Just an update, I called the vet and told them what is going on. They suggested these options:

-bring him in today to get him re-examined
-get him some new antibiotics that would be administered twice a day
-get a refill on his old medicine

I forgot to mention the possibility of parasites, but I might call back later with more questions.
Also, I would like to bring in a fecal example just in case it is any different from a cloacal wash.
Right now, he's just resting in his little cave.

Personally, I would call them back & ask about the possibility of him having worms that are causing his bizarre symptoms, & waiting (?) to get a stool sample they can check. Remind them about his overly-rapid digestion...that's a very significant observation, IMO. Snakes just don't digest a meal in one day without having "help". Many years ago, I took in (for relocation) a large rattlesnake that did precisely the same thing- digested in one day! I dosed his pre-killed rodent (in the oral cavity) with Panacur, & voila! he expelled a big pile of worms that were still alive (it was a cautiously low dose) but which didn't live long on his paper towels (quarantine) substrate. Gross! I repeated his treatments several more times, with more worms being dramatically evicted. Like I said, I've "seen this (super-rapid digestion) before". The Panacur (10% paste for horses) tends to be harmless in snakes when used as I described (& if you want, & have an accurate scale, you can calculate the dose yourself or have the vet do it, for the weight of your snake). It might also help diagnostically with yours?

I'd also ask if it's possible that he had some type of worms -there's more than one kind!- that perhaps started in his gut but have migrated -let's say to his lungs- and now are no longer presently detectable in his stool (or only marginally present)??? (regarding the cloacal wash that turned up nothing?)

I truly don't want to second-guess a veterinarian who is qualified to treat snakes & similar exotics, but I'd probably want a second opinion because in my experience (& in many years of sharing stories of the treatment of sick snakes on forums such as this) snakes tend to not survive when overly-medicated with multiple antibiotics- their bodies aren't up to the side effects- remember that antibiotics also destroy the "good bacteria" they need in their gut to digest properly. It seems possible to me that this "bacterial infection" they're determined to treat may be only secondary to his having worms, but again...I'm not seeing your snake physically, I'm just trying to help you make sense of this online, from afar, & hoping for your pet's best outcome.

That's what I'd be asking them, & depending on their answers & whether or not you're comfortable with their view of his issues, would either go ahead with their plan, or seek another vet. Again, I am NOT telling you not to listen to them- only what I'd be wondering if I were in your place. Hoping your snake makes a good recovery!

[mopuim]

I emailed them about all of the possibilities and brought up the rapid digestion and possibility of parasites. If the parasites do migrate and aren't detectable in his stool, how would he get tested for that?

(Also, the vet I go to is the only vet that specializes in exotics in my state and other ones are much farther away. I have to travel and hour to get there, but I don't mind.)

[Gocntry]

Just an update, I called the vet and told them what is going on. They suggested these options:

-bring him in today to get him re-examined
-get him some new antibiotics that would be administered twice a day
-get a refill on his old medicine

I forgot to mention the possibility of parasites, but I might call back later with more questions.
Also, I would like to bring in a fecal example just in case it is any different from a cloacal wash.
Right now, he's just resting in his little cave.

Take this as an opinion from some dude on the internets, because that's all it is........

Re-examined - probably not they didn't get it the 1st time, 2nd time I would have doubts
New antibiotics Nope didn't do anything the 1st time, would do that to a snake I owned a second time
Refill old medicine Definitely Not, absolutely didn't work the 1st time, really doubt it works doing it again...

I've been on this forum long enough that I would go with this option, I would definitely trust advice from Bogertophis.

Snakes just don't digest a meal in one day without having "help". Many years ago, I took in (for relocation) a large rattlesnake that did precisely the same thing- digested in one day! I dosed his pre-killed rodent (in the oral cavity) with Panacur, & voila! he expelled a big pile of worms that were still alive (it was a cautiously low dose) but which didn't live long on his paper towels (quarantine) substrate. Gross! I repeated his treatments several more times, with more worms being dramatically evicted. Like I said, I've "seen this (super-rapid digestion) before". The Panacur (10% paste for horses) tends to be harmless in snakes when used as I described (& if you want, & have an accurate scale, you can calculate the dose yourself.

I've declined services from my own vet, when she wanted to give one of my baby adoptees a shot of something (cant remember what) for 1 mite she found on my BP.

Got advice from this form, Had her mite free in two weeks with no issues, with no after effects to my snake or spreading of the mites.

Again just my opinion, Good Luck and Hoping for a Good Outcome with your Snake,

[mopuim]

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

[Bogertophis]

I emailed them about all of the possibilities and brought up the rapid digestion and possibility of parasites. If the parasites do migrate and aren't detectable in his stool, how would he get tested for that?

(Also, the vet I go to is the only vet that specializes in exotics in my state and other ones are much farther away. I have to travel and hour to get there, but I don't mind.)

Great question & one I have no answer for: but as I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, if worms that migrate elsewhere in a snake's body are suddenly killed off (by the vet giving a strong anthelmintic drug all at once) the dead worms can potentially block critical functions of major organs, so that alone can kill the snake. (Like if they happen to block a critical blood supply, for example.) It may not happen that way at all, but I've heard of that happening, so it's not without risk when treating worms aggressively. That's why I suggested using Panacur- a low dose can rid the snake's body of SOME of the worms, without such a massive impact. I think Panacur is only going to act on those in the gut, btw (or mostly)- but that might be diagnostically helpful too.

Doctors of all kinds tend to want to just give a medicine & get it DONE fast- plus many patients (or pet owners, in this case) expect a quick fix also, they don't want to have to keep going back for more treatment, so that's part of it too- it's hard to please everyone! But sometimes that aggressive treatment can overwhelm our pet snakes. You're an intelligent & caring owner...I want only a good outcome for you & your snake- so this is why I'm encouraging you to push them for more answers & discussion. I'm certainly NOT here to replace your vet's advice- but you've given very good descriptions of what's been going on with your snake, & I know how it is when you're stressed & at the vet's office with your sick pet, & they don't spend enough time for you to question what they're doing. I'd love to at least see you take in a stool sample for your appointment & have that checked first, before further meds. are given.

Antibiotics are often pushed onto both human & animal patients alike, without doing lab work to make SURE they're the correct & EFFECTIVE one for the bacteria causing the illness. Did they do that? Many vets/doctors don't because it's expensive & takes time & they just take their best guess to prescribe an antibiotic. When-if- it's the wrong antibiotic for the issue, it's doing more harm than good, and that's what concerns me when you said they want to try others on him. In my many years of snake-keeping, it seems to me that snakes respond & recover better when treatments are gentler on their bodies. They're able to survive a great deal in the wild, with no treatments of any kind. The doctors creed is "first do no harm"...but sometimes they do, without meaning to. So don't be shy about asking questions.

[Bogertophis]

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

I understand. But you already are. [giving him medicine that's not working-via the vet]. Do nothing, he suffers & probably dies sooner than he should. From the behavior you've described, well, honestly he's not in a good place right now. So I'd say that "doing SOMETHING that MAY help" is your best bet- and that includes INFORMED veterinary help if you prefer. Your snake, your call.

[mopuim]

The antibiotics seemed to make him better for a little bit, so I don't know what that means exactly. We might go to the vet tomorrow morning (hoping he passes stool). Those suggestions the vet gave seemed to need further investigation on his health, and I hope to have a more in depth conversation with them. They might want to perform an x-ray, but would that do any good and what could it show? Impaction does not really match his symptoms, but as I have noticed quite recently, his cloaca seems to be swelling a little bit and protruding more than normal (where usually he's just flat). He also eats fine and passes stool as explained before.

I will ask about the variety of treatments and hopefully they can find something appropriate for him. I am all for a slow process if it is necessary.

[Gocntry]

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

Totally understand that, having a living critters life in your hands is a big responsibility, If one of my snakes died under my care That would be a crushing blow.