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Thread: Kevin Hit 3.

  1. #11
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    Happy Birthday Kevin!

    You have an outstanding looking animal there, love it.
    The one thing I found that you can count on about Balls is that they are consistent about their inconsistentcy.

    1.2 Coastal Carpet Pythons
    Mack The Knife, 2013
    Lizzy, 2010
    Etta, 2013
    1.1 Jungle Carpet Pythons
    Esmarelda , 2014
    Sundance, 2012
    2.0 Common BI Boas, Punch, 2005; Butch, age?
    0.1 Normal Ball Python, Elvira, 2001
    0.1 Olive (Aussie) Python, Olivia, 2017

    Please excuse the spelling in my posts. Auto-Correct is my worst enema.

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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    This is somewhat opposite of what Nick Mutton says in some ways.

    Male species that combat are the larger species in the wild. Nick and I have discussed this and it actually applies to male retics as well.

    In captivity you'll see larger females but the key there seems to be that large males cost more to feed and house so they are "kept" at a certain size. Larger females are desired because they are supposedly mature earlier and can breed and produce more based on their size.

    Without being able to study wild morelia long term, my guess is as follows.

    Larger, wild males will be the more dominant in combat and will become successful breeders. Larger females will also be more successful as they are not solely focused on feeding and are able to support giving birth.

    If you are not breeding your snakes and simply keeping them as pets, my guess is males and females (species dependent) will roughly attain the same size.

    I'll see how Kevin progresses as it will be an interesting captive observation when looking at sexual size dimorphism.
    Interesting to see two schools of thought here. Needless to say, Nick is well regarded as the authority on carpets, Bredli included. So his word carries a bit more weight for me. Though I don't discount Casey's knowledge or experience, I think Nick holds the trump card (I use that term loosely, hehehe).

    All said, I'm loving this species!

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  5. #13
    BPnet Senior Member jmcrook's Avatar
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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Last I talked to nick his words on the dimorphism subject regarding carpets was that on average, the females are the larger sex. However, he went on to elaborate that the record setters for maximum size of almost all the species are almost invariably males.

    Those stories we hear of the fabled 12-14’ coastals are the exception to the rule and pretty much exclusively males. Curious to see how that pans out with my pair of Brisbane coastals. They’re not going to be fed for massive size but I’m probably going to feed them somewhat similarly, maybe a bit less for the male, and see where things go.

    The larger animals seem to be not the best breeders according to many sources and I’d like to have a shot or two at producing them down the road so we’ll see how things go.

    Curious to see how it pans out size wise for the rest of the Morelia Mafia’s critters here as well


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  7. #14
    BPnet Royalty Gio's Avatar
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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craiga 01453 View Post
    Interesting to see two schools of thought here. Needless to say, Nick is well regarded as the authority on carpets, Bredli included. So his word carries a bit more weight for me. Though I don't discount Casey's knowledge or experience, I think Nick holds the trump card (I use that term loosely, hehehe).

    All said, I'm loving this species!
    Nick sent me studies from Shine and some other science based studies. Most are the study of Australian snakes but there are others as well.

    The BIGGEST factor seems to be wild VS captive when it comes to discussing sexual size dimorphism and breeding.

    In captivity, a smaller male may be a better breeder. Why? It may come down to overfeeding in captivity a lot of keepers just don't do the right thing. In nature, I have no doubt a larger male will be more successful. They will win in combat and go on to breed.

    Rapidly grown, large males in captivity are not the same as successful, large males in nature that have had the advantage in finding food. An athlete and completely out of shape person can both weigh 280 pounds. There usually isn't any question as to which body type will succeed in combat. They reached their weight in different ways.

    Too many things change in captivity to compare wild VS captive.

    Nick used the analogy of male lions being the larger sex in the wild. They combat for territory and mating rights.

    I first discussed sexual size dimorphism with Gus Rentfro regarding boa constrictors when I was just getting into this. Gus is a world authority on boas.

    Gus felt a male boa could certainly attain the same size as a female boa if being properly raised as a pet. No pheromonal cues from a female could likely keep a male "on feed" vs going crazy looking for a mate.

    This is an interesting and under studied topic, however I'm still expecting Kevin to make at least 7 feet.

    Bredli are only second in size to the most southern form of coastal carpets (Brisbane locality) and tend to be heavier but not as long. That's right off Nick's webpage.

    That said, there are exceptions in every form.

    I'll keep Kevin's updates coming as he ages and grows.


    Check out this lunker.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3ARxHtiNCI


    And this male coastal.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3cgRxyrSRI
    Last edited by Gio; 09-17-2020 at 04:02 PM.

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    The only way that snake could be better looking is if it was a boa.

    One thing I know for sure: Big snakes eat big meals.

    I'm curious since I know little about Carpets. The largest Suriname/Guyana boas are found in the wild...it is very rare that a captive raised 10 footer shows up but 12+ foot wild boas are found. Is it the same with Carpets?

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  11. #16
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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by bns View Post
    The only way that snake could be better looking is if it was a boa.

    One thing I know for sure: Big snakes eat big meals.

    I'm curious since I know little about Carpets. The largest Suriname/Guyana boas are found in the wild...it is very rare that a captive raised 10 footer shows up but 12+ foot wild boas are found. Is it the same with Carpets?
    I'm not sure with carpets, but the videos I see of the snake catchers in Australia sure make me think they get pretty large in the wild.

    Carpets, specifically coastal carpets have adapted very well to human encroachment. It seems the areas around homes provide a host of prey opportunities be it wild animals, or domestic dogs and cats.

    They certainly seem large when the snake catchers show up.

    The most beautiful boa I've seen is wrapped around somebody's leg in Vin Russo's book.

    Huge and solid as rock. It was a Suri I believe.

    I don't expect my female coastal to get much larger, yet she surprised me this last year with a growth spurt at 6 years old and now she's 7.

    She's not a predictable eater, I typically try once a month these days but she goes longer too.
    Last edited by Gio; 09-17-2020 at 05:48 PM.

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  13. #17
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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    First of all, happy birthday Kevin! That's a very handsome bredli right there.

    Now y'all better strap in, because all this talk about snake growth means that you just wandered into my academic field! So pardon me while I put my academic nerd hat on, grab my lecture materials, and deliver my knowledge of snake growth and thoughts on why captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts for all those who are interested.

    The short: Snakes have indeterminate growth and will continue to grow over time using the energy they have left over after basic metabolic costs and reproduction are addressed. The demands of birth and egg-laying means females typically have more mass compared to a male of the same length, though this difference can go away or even reverse if male competition for mates is a factor. Captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts because it's more convenient for keepers and we're capable of controlling their growth.

    The no-so-short: So, let's start at the very beginning with the basics of snake growth. Almost all snakes have something we academics like to call indeterminate growth. In other words, snakes will continue to grow throughout their lifetime, and don't have a "maximum size" that they will stop growing at. If they're alive and have the energy they need to grow, they'll do so.

    What determines the amount energy snakes have to grow? Well, like most animals, snakes gain their energy by eating food. So, the more food a snake manages to eat, the more energy they have to burn. Most animals use their energy for three main purposes: basic metabolic costs, reproduction, and growth. Basic metabolic costs are the costs of keeping your body running -- they're the energetic costs of breathing, pumping your heart, digesting your food, powering your brain, and the like. Animals will use the energy they gain to address basic metabolic costs before anything else. Once basic metabolic costs are taken care of, an animal will then direct their remaining energy towards growth or reproduction. How an animal directs their spare energy between the two depends on their circumstances.

    In the case of snakes, physically mature individuals will likely put a considerable portion of their spare energy towards reproduction. This means bringing their reproductive organs back online, producing gametes, and -- in the case of females -- growing eggs and babies. The physics of egg production and pregnancy require a larger snake compared to one that simply produces gametes, which is why female snakes are typically bulkier and more massive compared to males of a similar size. However, this sexual dimorphism can break down when male combat is a factor -- the larger male typically wins the fight -- or even reverse if the pressure of competition is high enough. Any energy that's left over after reproduction can be put towards growth.

    Individuals who are incapable of reproducing -- whether it's an immature juvenile or a lone adult that doesn't receive the cues they need to trigger mating behavior -- will put their spare energy towards growth instead. For juveniles, this means eventually reaching physical maturity (so they can reproduce) and becoming less of an easy prey item. For otherwise mature adults, this could mean increasing their reproductive fitness (ie. getting larger to better fight rivals or lay more eggs) or their overall survival fitness (ie. maybe bigger's just better in the habitat where you live). Since they don't have to worry about reproduction and have comparably lower metabolic costs, a juvenile's growth rate will normally be much greater than an adult's. However, decades of incremental growth and the occasional glut of food (ie. a massive intake of energy) means adult snakes are still capable of growing quite a bit! If I had to guess, those 12-13' coastals are very old snakes and very successful hunters.

    So with all of that being addressed, why are captive male snakes typically smaller than their wild counterparts? Well:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    In captivity you'll see larger females but the key there seems to be that large males cost more to feed and house so they are "kept" at a certain size. Larger females are desired because they are supposedly mature earlier and can breed and produce more based on their size
    Gio pretty much hit the nail on the head. Captive males' smaller size may be a factor of our ability to control snakes' food intake and, by extension, the amount of spare energy they have to grow. Larger females are necessary to produce more young, but smaller males can still get their job done while being easier and more economical to keep. It's almost a no-brainer for a breeders. I'll also add that small breeder males are putting more energy into reproduction compared to a "pet" male of the same age, and thus have less spare energy left for growth.

    Gio's also made good observations on why smaller males may be better breeders than smaller males in captivity. Size does not equal reproductive fitness. A young, rapidly grown male may not yet be sexually mature despite being "the right size." Furthermore, it's likely that power-feeding levels of rapid growth disrupt a snake's proper bodily functions and stunt their proper development, which leads to poor breeding performance. Snakes will mature when they're ready. A slow-grown male will be smaller than a rapidly grown male at your average age of sexual maturity, but they'll probably have had more balanced growth overall, which makes them better breeders.

    I'm going to stop myself for now. Apologies if this came across as too lecture-y for people -- I wound up teaching this semester and I'm In That Mode. If anybody is interested in the real nitty-gritty of snake biology, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of How Snakes Work: Structure, Function, and Behavior of the World's Snakes by Harvey B. Lillywhite. It's a dense, grad school-level read, but it sounds like some of you might be up for that!

    [End lecture. Class dismissed]
    0.1 Sonoran Boa sigma​: "Adelita" ('19 Hypo het. leopard)
    1.0 Boa imperator longicauda: "Kuzco" ('19 het. anery)
    0.1 West Papuan Morelia spilota​: "Pandora" ('20)

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  15. #18
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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongPython View Post
    First of all, happy birthday Kevin! That's a very handsome bredli right there.

    Now y'all better strap in, because all this talk about snake growth means that you just wandered into my academic field! So pardon me while I put my academic nerd hat on, grab my lecture materials, and deliver my knowledge of snake growth and thoughts on why captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts for all those who are interested.

    The short: Snakes have indeterminate growth and will continue to grow over time using the energy they have left over after basic metabolic costs and reproduction are addressed. The demands of birth and egg-laying means females typically have more mass compared to a male of the same length, though this difference can go away or even reverse if male competition for mates is a factor. Captive males may be smaller than their wild counterparts because it's more convenient for keepers and we're capable of controlling their growth.

    The no-so-short: So, let's start at the very beginning with the basics of snake growth. Almost all snakes have something we academics like to call indeterminate growth. In other words, snakes will continue to grow throughout their lifetime, and don't have a "maximum size" that they will stop growing at. If they're alive and have the energy they need to grow, they'll do so.

    What determines the amount energy snakes have to grow? Well, like most animals, snakes gain their energy by eating food. So, the more food a snake manages to eat, the more energy they have to burn. Most animals use their energy for three main purposes: basic metabolic costs, reproduction, and growth. Basic metabolic costs are the costs of keeping your body running -- they're the energetic costs of breathing, pumping your heart, digesting your food, powering your brain, and the like. Animals will use the energy they gain to address basic metabolic costs before anything else. Once basic metabolic costs are taken care of, an animal will then direct their remaining energy towards growth or reproduction. How an animal directs their spare energy between the two depends on their circumstances.

    In the case of snakes, physically mature individuals will likely put a considerable portion of their spare energy towards reproduction. This means bringing their reproductive organs back online, producing gametes, and -- in the case of females -- growing eggs and babies. The physics of egg production and pregnancy require a larger snake compared to one that simply produces gametes, which is why female snakes are typically bulkier and more massive compared to males of a similar size. However, this sexual dimorphism can break down when male combat is a factor -- the larger male typically wins the fight -- or even reverse if the pressure of competition is high enough. Any energy that's left over after reproduction can be put towards growth.

    Individuals who are incapable of reproducing -- whether it's an immature juvenile or a lone adult that doesn't receive the cues they need to trigger mating behavior -- will put their spare energy towards growth instead. For juveniles, this means eventually reaching physical maturity (so they can reproduce) and becoming less of an easy prey item. For otherwise mature adults, this could mean increasing their reproductive fitness (ie. getting larger to better fight rivals or lay more eggs) or their overall survival fitness (ie. maybe bigger's just better in the habitat where you live). Since they don't have to worry about reproduction and have comparably lower metabolic costs, a juvenile's growth rate will normally be much greater than an adult's. However, decades of incremental growth and the occasional glut of food (ie. a massive intake of energy) means adult snakes are still capable of growing quite a bit! If I had to guess, those 12-13' coastals are very old snakes and very successful hunters.

    So with all of that being addressed, why are captive male snakes typically smaller than their wild counterparts? Well:



    Gio pretty much hit the nail on the head. Captive males' smaller size may be a factor of our ability to control snakes' food intake and, by extension, the amount of spare energy they have to grow. Larger females are necessary to produce more young, but smaller males can still get their job done while being easier and more economical to keep. It's almost a no-brainer for a breeders. I'll also add that small breeder males are putting more energy into reproduction compared to a "pet" male of the same age, and thus have less spare energy left for growth.

    Gio's also made good observations on why smaller males may be better breeders than smaller males in captivity. Size does not equal reproductive fitness. A young, rapidly grown male may not yet be sexually mature despite being "the right size." Furthermore, it's likely that power-feeding levels of rapid growth disrupt a snake's proper bodily functions and stunt their proper development, which leads to poor breeding performance. Snakes will mature when they're ready. A slow-grown male will be smaller than a rapidly grown male at your average age of sexual maturity, but they'll probably have had more balanced growth overall, which makes them better breeders.

    I'm going to stop myself for now. Apologies if this came across as too lecture-y for people -- I wound up teaching this semester and I'm In That Mode. If anybody is interested in the real nitty-gritty of snake biology, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of How Snakes Work: Structure, Function, and Behavior of the World's Snakes by Harvey B. Lillywhite. It's a dense, grad school-level read, but it sounds like some of you might be up for that!

    [End lecture. Class dismissed]
    Excellent points and a much better and more in-depth job of saying what I was trying to say and then some.

    Back to the subject of the Centralians for a bit.

    Again, after speaking with Nick I was told, we don't see a lot of wild photos/footage of them because you have to really "beat the bush" to find them.

    They are not frequently found in areas that are easily accessible like coastal carpets are.

    I know there are some really large Bredli out there but finding them is difficult They ARE a combative species and Nick stated wild males can and do attain good size ultimately larger than females in some cases.

    WrongPython,

    Way back when on a Red Tail boa board, Gus Rentfro stated this. "In the wild, the biggest boas are the oldest boas". He spoke about captive feeding and how many boas died probably before reaching their healthy, full size potential.

    The sexual size dimorphism studies are fascinating to me.

    Nature's "survival of the fittest" statement makes a lot of sense and ultimately proves out that the most successful animals are the ones that can meet their basic needs.

    Feeding and growth are major factors when it comes to male/male combat and female reproduction. I don't think people find fat, big snakes in the wild. I do think they find healthy, very large snakes in the wild.

    IMO the snakes that are the most successful, male or female are the ones that get the most food, attain the largest sizes and are the physically strongest.

    Sensational post WrongPython!
    Last edited by Gio; 09-17-2020 at 09:46 PM.

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    Re: Kevin Hit 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gio View Post
    I'm not sure with carpets, but the videos I see of the snake catchers in Australia sure make me think they get pretty large in the wild.

    Carpets, specifically coastal carpets have adapted very well to human encroachment. It seems the areas around homes provide a host of prey opportunities be it wild animals, or domestic dogs and cats.

    They certainly seem large when the snake catchers show up.

    The most beautiful boa I've seen is wrapped around somebody's leg in Vin Russo's book.

    Huge and solid as rock. It was a Suri I believe.

    I don't expect my female coastal to get much larger, yet she surprised me this last year with a growth spurt at 6 years old and now she's 7.

    She's not a predictable eater, I typically try once a month these days but she goes longer too.
    I'm reasonably confident I know the photo you are talking about, it was a friend of Gus R in the photo with his hands on the neck of a huge female boa.

    You guys covered male combat and some other stuff so I'm going back to an earlier comment I made about 'big snakes eat big meals'. Gus R. talked about raising many boas to 8 feet on rats, but the ones that he raised to greater lengths required larger prey. It didn't have anything to do with nutrition, maybe something to do with calories but I don't think it was the amount of calories over the period of a year but the amount of calories per meal that did 'something'. A mature female BCO here grew more (length) on just 3 meals of 4+ pound rabbits in a year than the previous two years on rats. I've see similar results with other boa. IMO large meals activate something in their genes triggering growth.

    I know my buddy Gio has this thread in Carpets but I know boas so I have to relate those observations and if he doesn't like it on his thread, too bad! Friend .

    You always hear Suriname Guyana boa keepers talk about feeding mice the first year, not feeding too often, not feeding too large, etc...and its all true but how is it the largest bc on the planet are such slow starters? And how is it that even a 9-10 foot captive born Suriname/Guyana boa is very rare (let alone something really big)? Something happens to boas as they age and granted genetics are a factor as an individual boa, differences in other subs of boas (when the BCO were young in my care they could eat meals with ease that I wouldn't feed to a much larger non adult Suriname boa) and even location within a sub is a factor (I don't believe a Pokigron Suriname boa will reach the size of some of the Suriname boas brought into the country 35-40 years ago). As a boa matures they are more capable of eating large meals. As keepers most say meal size should be equal to their body width -a good practice for sure but mature boas thrive when going beyond this size guideline and can swallow larger prey with an ease they didn't have when they were younger. A mature 7 foot Pokigron Suriname eats rabbits over 2 pounds with ease but I never would have fed a meal as large (relative to size) when it was a younger snake.

    I think males in some boa subs (areas of location) have the potential to reach large sizes but they don't. Import houses get in really big females once in a while but I've never heard of males that compare...why is that? I have a theory. As I said above, large meals trigger growth and as they mature they are capable of eating much larger prey as compared to percentage of body mass than when they were younger. That pertains to sex because the female boa is desperate after giving birth, eating anything she can fit in her pie hole that she crosses paths with and she is spending way more time looking for things to cross her path than a male. This combined with luck and years of being successful lead to a large female snake. Mature males in captivity (and I'd bet are similar in the wild) are about conserving resources (they are lazy). They hunt less and require much less food. Even non breeding females are wanting to be fed more than males in captivity.

    Breeders may never noticed the ability for prey size increase in mature boas as it doesn't matter to them and I think other keepers who have observed it don't talk about it because they don't want to influence a keeper into doing something that is outside of their 'range'. I hesitate to post some of this food size 'stuff' because I don't want someone with a limited understanding to kill their boa. It is an absolute fact that increased calorie intake in a young boa will not give you a large, old boa and overfeeding an adult boa will only get you a fat adult...like my buddy Gio quoting Gus...the largest boas are the oldest.

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    I like the way this thread turned out and BOAS are certainly welcome here!

    Having welcomed boas, I'll switch back to carpets for a moment.

    There are a lot of photos and Youtube videos of carpets being discovered in the wild with enormous prey bulges in them. I recall one carpet that ate a domestic dog it had to be saved because the dog was still attached to a chain which the carpet had ingested.

    The amount of variables in this discussion are endless. Boas are different than pythons. Pythons seem more ready to go at younger ages when it comes to larger prey items and feeding frequency. Although I've seen sad/disgusting examples of reticulated pythons being push far beyond their limits. Colubrids are another story and I have very little knowledge pertaining to venomous species.

    I believe my male boa is close to 7 feet long. He's likely under and certainly not over.

    This snake started out being fed more than probably recommended but certainly not obnoxiously stuffed. The Vin Russo book helped me get on track, but my friend BNS (Met on Redtailboa.net) was nice enough to have me call him by phone and further get my feeding program refined.

    As it turns out we live within 25 minutes of one another and have met in person, he even took me herping a few years back.

    My boa has had a wide variety of prey. Never mice as I got him when he was just shy of a year. He was on medium rats and I kept that going early on.

    Obviously he made it to large rats, and the occasionally rabbit plus large quail.

    We practice seasonal change and he won't eat from October until late March.

    I think the last meal of the season will be a 2 pound rabbit.

    I have to run, but I popped in and I'm enjoying the discussion.

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