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  1. #1
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    Getting back into snakes... Need some advice

    Sorry in advance for the long post, have a few specific questions but mostly just looking for general advice or feedback. tl;dr at the bottom for questions if you don't wanna read this essay.

    So without going into a long history of my past, I used to own quite a few snakes. I lived with my girlfriend at the time, she had a lot of colubrids and a few smaller boas and I had an adult burm and a few retics. I actually planned on breeding the retics, but never had the chance. Laws changed in our state (Ohio), we broke up, long story short I no longer own any snakes and haven't in many years... But here recently I've been wanting to get one again, I just miss those quirky little buggers.

    There are 2 snakes I really want. A moonglow (Carmel axanthic albino) carpet python, and an amazon basin emerald tree boa. I have ~$1000 to spare, could probably spend $500 on a snake AND enclosure/necessities. Neither of those are possible, especially if I wanna keep some money in the bank in case of emergencies.

    So here's my plan: Start with basic ball python morphs, and work my way up. Since I have no experience breeding (Just a lot of theoretical knowledge), I figured balls would be a good place to start so I could learn the basics of how to breed, incubate, etc (obviously there are going to be differences between species, but there's the most documentation on balls so I figured they'd be best to start out with). Hopefully after a few generations I'd be able to afford some of the base morphs of carpet pythons (and carpet python enclosures) and move on to those, then many many generations down the line have made enough to afford an ABETB (and an enclosure that can meet all of their strict husbandry requirements) and end up with a moonglow carpet. Definitely a long process that I don't see finishing this decade, but it sounds perfect for me.

    I don't want to make it sound like I'm only interested in ball pythons for the money. I'm not, and definitely have no intention of making a living off this. I do want a few of the higher end morphs tho, so if I can get there in the long run and have my hobby pay for itself along the way then that sounds perfect. I've always been interested in breeding snakes as well, and ball pythons sound perfect for that (With the largest market I'd assume they're easier to sell than say carpet pythons, which altho still popular is a much more niche market). Money for me is tight. I love my job and couldn't imagine doing anything else, but the pay isn't amazing... Which is fine for every other aspect of my life, but if I want to own some of these higher end morphs or rarer species of snake then there's no way realistically I'm going to be able to afford it without making huge life changes.

    So enclosures... I also plan on doing all the enclosures DIY, and maybe selling a few enclosures along the way as a side project and to help me get to my goal. And that's where I'm stuck right now. Like I said, my budget is kinda tight and I want to keep some money in the bank for emergencies (both regular emergencies and in case I need to take a snake to the vet or something). So right now I can get a ½"x4'x8' piece of PVC foam board for ~$70. If I use every inch of that board, I can make two 36"x18"x12" enclosures. After adding plexiglass and finishing touches, the total for both cages would be a little over $100 total, which is awesome. The problem is heating. Since it's ½" PVC, I'm not really comfortable just slapping heat tape on the bottom (attached to a thermostat ofc) since I'm not sure it'd be able to permeate through the PVC and ~2" of substrate without damaging the PVC. I also don't want to attach a light fixture on top of the enclosure, since then I wouldn't be able to stack them (and being able to stack/expand is important). Radiant Heat Panels are an option, but RHP's for both enclosures would cost more than the enclosures themselves. Adding an internal Ceramic Heat Emitter is also an option, but the footprint of the CHE + protective cage (to keep the snake from touching it directly) is fairly large in an already debatably small enclosure (36"x18"x12" is slightly larger than the tubs Freedom Breeder recommends for adult BP's, but only slightly). Cutting out a ~3/8" foot long strip along the bottom to attach heat tape and only leave 1/8" of PVC to penetrate sounds perfect... But I have no clue how to do that, nor do I think I have the necessary tools. Anyone have any thoughts/insights that could help me out here?

    Option #2 is to just go all-in and make my own rack. I could then buy tubs or make my own "tubs" out of thinner PVC to avoid the ½" of pvc heat tape issue. It also gives plenty of room for expansion, and I'll have to build a rack anyway here in a few years to house my first clutch. It'd also let me start out with a small enclosure for a baby ball and move it up as it grows (Where just building a 3x1.5x1 enclosure means I'd have to put a lot of decor in to keep a baby snake from feeling exposed). The problems are that for a few years I wouldn't have any other snakes, so I kind of want a regular cage for optimal viewing... And on a more technical side, I'd either have to wire each layer of the heat for the rack separately or end up with a lot of heat on the rack that isn't being used (If I make a 6 layer rack and only use 1-2 of those layers, there are 4-5 layers with heat tape and nothing on them). It's also a bigger investment up front, since I'll need significantly more materials. I could get around the optimal viewing part with a nicely built custom tub, but that'd require working with " PVC, and I'd have no clue how to work with something that thin while maintaining structural integrity. Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?

    Also, I'm a bit worried about the PVC itself. Home Depot called it "PVC Foam Board". I've read a lot of differing information online about PVC for snake enclosures, from it's the best material to use period to it's going to kill your snake and everything else in the room. I'm guessing this is because there are many different types of PVC board. Anyone have any useful info here? Types to look for, types to avoid, or even just a resource to differentiate between everything and their basic qualities without having to spend weeks making myself an expert on PVC?

    tl;dr:
    1) I wanna make a 36"x18"x12" enclosure out of ½" PVC. How would I make heat tape work with this setup?
    2) ⅛" PVC board... How do you work with this stuff to make a sturdy tub-style enclosure? Or would I be better off with a different material?
    3) Any tips/tricks for making your own DIY enclosure? Pretty new to DIY stuff so only know the basics about materials and techniques.
    4) What types of PVC are safe to use for snake enclosures?
    Last edited by Chaos-n-Dissonance; 08-28-2020 at 11:02 AM.

  2. #2
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    I know everyone has their own opinions, and these are just mine. So take them at face value.

    If your plan to pay for your dream snakes is through breeding snakes, that seems like a really bad idea. For one, it takes time to raise up snakes to breeding size. Two, breeding snakes generally isn't a money-making scheme. You will likely break even, or even put more into the snakes than you get back. And if you go the route of getting a large group of breeders all at once, you may find yourself burnt out when they all mature. Baby snakes are easy, and cheap. But when they grow up, you may find yourself not as capable of paying for everything between the increased food bill and caging/equipment costs. Even if you cut all costs at the expense of the well-being of the animals, there is no guarantee, and probably a very slim chance, you will make money. Or at least not for several, several years. I've seen some breeders (who do make their whole living breeding snakes) make videos and have interviews, saying it took them something ridiculous like 5-10 years to see a return on their investment. Is that a timeline you can abide by? Even if in that period of time you still stay at breaking even, and couldn't muster up the extra funds for one of those fancy morphs you want (just from the breeding anyways)?


    It would take less time, and less effort, just to raise the money for the snakes in the first place. It's one thing breeding a species because you've come to enjoy them, and breeding is the next step for you, but getting into it to make money is just going to work against you. Especially when you jump into said breeding with no knowledge of the market, and make assumptions on how easy it will be.


    I personally raise my boas in 100-200 qt tubs (200 qt being preferable), and then upgrading around the time they're 5'-5.5' to a 4'x2'x2' (which is personally the smallest I'd use for a fully grown bp). Granted, if you don't set those tubs up in a rack system, you can't stack them and they take up more room, but it will make it easier to view them.


    From what I've heard from people with experience buying PVC from the store...it just doesn't stack up to the PVC from a company like Animal Plastics. Bowing would definitely be a major worry, even with the 1/2" imo. You get what you pay for, though, so keep that in mind. As far as heat tape...I don't see how it couldn't reach through any thickness of PVC mentioned. But I prefer panels, and don't like going below 2' of height.
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  4. #3
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    There are SO many people breeding ball pythons these days...and the economy is not all that good either...people out of work are not buying pets, that's for sure.

    Most people are not making much money by selling BPs, and they can COST you more than you ever make...they're living animals, not all are successful breeders,
    plus they can also get sick, or egg-bound. You need money set aside for vet care too, besides all the food & supplies needed.

    Honestly, if I were you, I'd go buy one of my 'dream snakes' for a pet, with a nice set-up, and quit there...you'll have a lot more fun with a LOT less work & stress.
    If you aren't passionate about what you're working with, please just don't do it...the BP-market is pretty saturated as it is, from what I can tell.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 08-28-2020 at 05:42 PM.
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  6. #4
    BPnet Veteran wnateg's Avatar
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    I answered your PVC questions in your other thread. In terms of your plan, it would be more economical to save money than worry about breeding snakes with your experience level and budget. If you're doing it for fun, different story.
    Last edited by wnateg; 08-28-2020 at 05:46 PM.
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  8. #5
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    Thank you for the replies, I feel like I didn't get my intentions across correctly tho.

    Again, I'm notlooking to make money here. I'm not even really looking to make much of a profit - just enough for the snakes to pay for their own upkeep, and years down the line be able to afford a few new snakes. Breeding was something I was considering nearly a decade ago and still want to try (My plans prior to breed got cut short, about a year into owning my retics some guy a few towns over let his private collection of all sorts of exotic animals free and Ohio's exotic animal laws changed... Specifically, the breeding and sale of retics was straight banned and you needed a license and liability insurance to even own one... And the amount of liability insurance increased with the number of restricted animals you owned, so breeding even for personal interest was a no-go). I fully realize this would neither be an extra income for me nor be a fast process, and I'm perfectly fine buying baby snakes and not being able to breed them at all for a few years.

    I'm also very aware this won't be a quick process - I even stated in my original post it wasn't a project I was planning on fully completing this decade. I know it's going to take time to raise the snakes, learn how to properly breed them, and the whole time they're going to be eating and using electricity. And I guess for the ball pythons I really want I could just go out and buy the morph and be done with it. But it would feel so much more rewarding owning a snake that I produced. For example, I could just go out and buy a BEL right now for $400-600 and be done with it, and maybe in a few months scrape together enough for a regular JCP and just let the moonglow and ABETB be a dream I'll never achieve... Or I could go out and buy a Mojave and a Lesser ball python for ~$75 each, then when they're big enough to breed (in a few years) breed them together and hope for a BEL (If my understanding of genetics is correct with these morphs, it'd be a ~25% chance per egg). If I got one, then great I'd absolutely keep it and raise it. If I got two (male and female), I might keep both just to breed together later with the intention of selling all the clutches (and stop breeding the Lesser and Mojave at that point). If one or the other ended up just not being able to breed, honestly I'd probably keep them as pets and try again with a new pair. I wouldn't be buying adults to try to breed quickly and jump-start it. I wouldn't be ignoring the animals after I got the morph I wanted. Honestly I probably wouldn't even sell the adults, they would definitely be pets first and breeders second. I wouldn't be chasing the next big thing or flavor-of-the-week morph. I have specific morphs I want to work towards starting from the basics, and all the extras along the way are what I'd sell.

    I didn't mean to imply it's easy to sell ball pythons. I meant they're easier to sell than carpet pythons, that have all the same hurdles to jump but with significantly less demand. I'm sure if I wanted to actually pursue breeding as a career or even a medium-scale breeding project for side income then getting consistent sales would be hard. I probably wouldn't be breeding more than 1 or 2 pairs a year tho... And I might not have to even sell all the babies. Like I said, I want to do the same thing with carpet pythons and am just choosing to do ball pythons first since there's more information out there and the base morphs are cheaper. I've seen a lot of people at my local reptile shows bartering, so that's a possibility as well. Also since I'm not really looking for a profit I could afford to sell the babies pretty cheap. I don't understand why people are making food out to be such a big deal... Since I'm planning on a very small scale operation, starting with 2 ball pythons would be cheaper to feed than if I had an extra $15,000 and could start with my carpet and ETB. And it's not like I really consider food a "cost" for breeding - It'd be nice to make food costs back, but it's an expense I'm going to be looking at if I want to breed or not since I'd still want to... You know... Own a few snakes. And the babies would eat very small mice which are practically a dime a dozen (OK, I know they're not that cheap, but even rodentpro sells small mice for $29 for 100) and hopefully I wouldn't have the babies I didn't want to keep for more than a few months so even a full 10 egg clutch if I had to hold them for 3 months and fed them weekly would cost me <$50, meaning I'd need to sell each snake for a whole $5.00 to make back my cost on them.

    Also for everyone telling me to just go out and buy the 2 snakes I want instead of explore my hobby... They're very expensive snakes. Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boas that are captive bred I haven't been able to find for less than $4,000. I'm very particular about the amazon basin local, since they grow larger (In case you hadn't figured it out from me having owned burms and retics... I love big snakes). The moonglow carpet python isn't even on morph market, but last known sold was for $10,000 AFAIK. I'd definitely want both as well... I've always loved snakes since I was a little kid, and the emerald tree boa has always been my favorite. They're not one you really wanna handle tho with very long teeth and very defensive attitudes, as well as being rather fragile snakes... So I'd want the carpet as well. $15,000 just isn't a realistic amount for me to save for right now, especially since I'd probably still end up getting a snake in the mean time. Even if it takes me 20 years to save up the $15,000 I need, I can't see taking on breeding as a hobby slowing me down any more than owning a few snakes (which I definitely would) in the worst case scenario, and best case scenario if I can get lucky with clutches and finding babies that end up being successful breeders it might speed it up significantly. Plus I just can't justify paying that much for a cool looking carpet python. I am really looking forward to starting with the base morphs and breeding them together until I have that beautiful snake I'm after, then every time I look at it knowing I​ made that happen.

  9. #6
    BPnet Senior Member CloudtheBoa's Avatar
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    Getting back into snakes... Need some advice

    I honestly wouldn't even depend on that much. You're a lot more likely to sink more money in than you get out, let alone to earn enough to buy those snakes. Especially with the breeding plan you have.

    If you want to breed because it interests you, then that's definitely a more sustainable approach. Buying a few cheap, likely low-quality examples of a morph and breeding a clutch or two a year won't get you to the moonglow carpet and Amazon Basin ETB. Which is where my comment was focused, as I don't think you elaborated much on wanting to breed bps for the sake of breeding bps. It seemed you were hoping breeding them was going to be solely responsible for buying the more expensive snakes you wanted. It may barely even pay for the food for the snakes, depending on how long they sit with you. Small mice won't last beyond a few feedings. And definitely won't get your money back for caging, thermostats, heating elements, and the breeder snakes themselves for several breeding seasons.


    Again, if you breed the bps because you want to breed them, and not to pay for other snakes or make a profit, that will be a much better goal. Then, if you decide to expand on your plan and continue to aim for the ETB and carpet, then you're taking things in bite-sized pieces and laying the groundwork for it to happen. You would need a pretty decent breeding operation going pumping out more than a handful of clutches every year to make it to a goal of $14,000 for both snakes, or even $4,000 just for the ETB. That scale of operation would probably need a couple employees to help you out, just from the sheer number of snakes, or more expensive and desirable morphs.
    Last edited by CloudtheBoa; 08-28-2020 at 09:19 PM.
    8.3 Boa imperator ('15 sunglow "Nymeria," '11 normal "Cloud," '16 anery motley "Crona," '10 ghost "Howl," '08 jungle "Dominika," '22 RC pastel hypo jungle "Aleister," '22 pastel normal "Gengar," '22 orangasm hypo "Daemon," '22 poss jungle "Jinzo," '22 poss jungle "Calcifer," '22 motley "Guin")
    1.4 Boa imperator; unnamed '22 hbs
    3.3 Plains garter snakes
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  11. #7
    BPnet Senior Member Mr. Misha's Avatar
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    I don't want to further beat a dead horse so I'm going to make this short: I agree with opinions already stated. Most likely, you're going to lose more money breeding than just saving and just getting what you want.

    With that said, I think the same goes for the enclosure. An Animal Plastics T8 48x24x12 enclosure is $165 bucks + shipping. I don't think you're going to be able to DIY a PVC enclosure any cheaper than that. AP also offers racks in case you're interested in those. Again, probably cheaper to buy. A member on here just built an enclosure out of wood (check out his build in the caging sub-forum) and it cost him the same amount as it would have ordering one. Just food for thought.

    In regards to heating, is there a reason why you want to heat the whole enclosure with heat tape? The reason I ask is because heat tape doesn't really provide ambient heat. The easier route would be to go with a RHP to heat the whole enclosure and calling it a day.
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  13. #8
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    For what it's worth, I don't make a ton of money. All of my snakes are either "normal wild types" or single gene, with the exception of the two that were given to me.

    And guess what??? They're awesome snakes and have the exact same temperament as a $10,000 snake would have.

    I get the local thing with the ETB, but is a slightly smaller ETB that's within your price range gonna be any less quality of a pet....nope.

    The carpet, you're looking at an expensive paint job. That's like slapping custom paint and rims on a run of the mill car. It's still the same car. Maybe a little prettier depending on who you ask. But all the functional stuff is still the same.

    Maybe it's worth just living within your means rather than experimenting with living creatures????

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    Carpet pythons are not difficult to keep or breed. Get a nice female carpet python that will set you up to produce the morph you want, keep her in a tub while she's small, and make an enclosure for her if you have the skills and tools as she grows up. Get the male you need in a year or so and do the same.

    If you can make quality enclosures, offer them for a decent price, and deliver when you promise, you will make more cash with less hassle and heartache than you will by breeding ball pythons.

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    Breed what you like, that way you'll be less likely to lose your passion.



    By all means, save as much money as you can by building your own enclosures, invest the extra money into the animals.
    5 or years or so when your homemade rack systems are falling apart, you'll be glad you started with the best animals you could afford.

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