Please, please help me feed this ridiculously picky creature.

[smakemom]

I am tired, stressed, and so done with this overgrown noodle's nonexistent appetite. I like him a lot, he's a cool snake, but I'm at a total loss.
This guy has not willingly eaten for me for over 3 months. He was force fed by a veterinarian July 25th, and kept it down, but this didn't change his attitude about food.
Now this guy has ALWAYS given me trouble when it comes to eating, but normally I can get him to comply at least every few weeks. But now he won't even do that.

This is everything I have tried:
- I have tried f/t pinky rats. (He ate these as a hatchling.)
- I have tried f/t small rats. (He ate these a couple times for me.)
- I have tried f/t small mice. (He's terrified of the things.)
- I have tried live mice. (I don't have access to live rats.)
- I have tried hitting it with a blow dryer to make it hot. No dice.
- I have tried reheating it a few times and representing it. Rejected.
- I have tried giving it a long time to thaw in lukewarm water. No effect.
- I have tried a shorter amount of time in warm/hot water. No difference.
- I have changed his substrate, his environment, his heating systems (and waited long enough for him to adjust) to no avail.
- I took him to a vet, who force fed him, but there's nothing wrong with him otherwise. Totally healthy.
- I tried feeding him when the sun was up. AND after it had gone down. And in the middle of the night. NOTHING.
- I tried wiggling a f/t rat with tongs to simulate life. He is scared to death of tongs, for some reason. He will strike, but it's more of a bluff. He doesn't latch on. He has NEVER eaten for me when I used tongs. When he has eaten for me, I just laid the rat near him and he helped himself.
- For heaven's sake, my dad tied a damn thread to a rat and basically fished with it to try and simulate life since he's so scared of tongs, but this was a flop. He checked it out, but wiggled away ultimately.

And finally, last night, I stayed up until 4 in the damn morning watching and waiting for every chance he to poked his head out of his cave, offered, and removed and reintroduced several times over the course of several hours. I even waited for him to come out completely (which he seems to do most nights when left to his own devices, usually to try and harass his heat emitter, though it's out of reach) and while he did take a look at the rat many times and even got quite close, he ultimately said "Hm, no thanks. I choose hunger."

So, needless to say, I am at my wit's end.

I know the specs of my tank will be desired, so here they are: https://imgur.com/a/yXyd8Mv
He has a ceramic heat emitter that's on 24/7 and keeps his tank around 80-85º on the hot half of his tank.
He also has a basking lamp that's on during the day. To maintain optimal temperatures, it is toggled on and off by the hour with a timer. The heat emitter is regulated by a thermostat controller.
The cool side stays around 70-75º.
His humidity struggles a bit, but I can typically keep it above 50%. He has two water dishes to help fight the dryness issue, which works pretty well.
He has paper substrate, which makes for very easy cleaning and replacement, so I can keep urates and poop out of his domain. I do a full change now and then, usually when I do a decor clean. So, 1-2 times a month.

If I am doing something wrong or you think I could do it in a better way, TELL ME. I take ALL criticism. I have no pride concerning the subject, I know I'm no expert.
I just want to feed my snake, man. He's getting skinnier as time goes on, and it's stressing me out. I am now literally losing sleep on the subject.

For the love of god, please help me.
Here are past forum posts I've made when he gave me trouble back then, and know that I've tried their advice since then and haven't had success:
- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...a-New-BP-Owner
- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-Feeding-Help

Thank you.

[Craiga 01453]

First, those cool side temps need to come up. 75 should be the absolute minimum. You should be aiming for 78-80. If he doesn't feel like he can properly digest he will not eat.

You also want to be consistent with your offerings. You're all over the place. Stick to what he ate last. Only offer every 2 weeks, at night, when it's quiet and he's in his hide.

Also, get a new vet. A vet that force feeds an adult snake doesn't have a clue about snakes. That may have even been a setback.

No handling the snake at all. Basically forget he's there's except to check temps and change water. I'm guessing no spot cleaning will be needed since he's not eating, but if he's drinking you may see some urates.

[Lord Sorril]

What was his original weight and what is his weight now?

An adult male in good condition can easily go a year without eating.

I have a small 700 gram male that is 3 years old and hasn't eaten in 8 months. I'm not even worried.

[smakemom]

First, those cool side temps need to come up. 75 should be the absolute minimum. You should be aiming for 78-80. If he doesn't feel like he can properly digest he will not eat.

You also want to be consistent with your offerings. You're all over the place. Stick to what he ate last. Only offer every 2 weeks, at night, when it's quiet and he's in his hide.

Also, get a new vet. A vet that force feeds an adult snake doesn't have a clue about snakes. That may have even been a setback.

No handling the snake at all. Basically forget he's there's except to check temps and change water. I'm guessing no spot cleaning will be needed since he's not eating, but if he's drinking you may see some urates.

All of this has been done over the course of a few months, I haven’t been doing this day by day lol. Also, he’s only 8 months old, not an adult. I’ll try bringing the temps up. I haven’t been handling him much at all but I will bring the amount of handling down to zero.

Forgot to reply with quote. This is in response to Craiga 01453.

[smakemom]

187g

What was his original weight and what is his weight now?

An adult male in good condition can easily go a year without eating.

I have a small 700 gram male that is 3 years old and hasn't eaten in 8 months. I'm not even worried.

He was 187g last time I weighed him. I can only assume he's lost a little weight since then since he's only eaten worse since then lol.
Also, there's some confusion on this post that my snake is an adult- he is not. He's about 8 months old. I apologize for neglecting to mention this.

[walzon1]

I'm still learning myself so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me like your BP does not feel secure. High traffic areas, large open spaces, too large an enclosure. The fact that you can see him if he pops his head out can be an issue.
What I would do if I were having these issues.
1. Put him in a super basic setup. Really small tub, Heat mat only, water, and black it out on all sides so he feels completely secure.
2. feed live till he starts eating again. Do nothing but drop the mouse in, close the lid and leave. CHeck back in 15 minutes If hasn't eaten wait another week.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[smakemom]

I'm still learning myself so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me like your BP does not feel secure. High traffic areas, large open spaces, too large an enclosure. The fact that you can see him if he pops his head out can be an issue.
What I would do if I were having these issues.
1. Put him in a super basic setup. Really small tub, Heat mat only, water, and black it out on all sides so he feels completely secure.
2. feed live till he starts eating again. Do nothing but drop the mouse in, close the lid and leave. CHeck back in 15 minutes If hasn't eaten wait another week.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

He appears to be afraid of live mice, so I don't think that would work, unfortunately. Also, he is not in a high traffic area. He is in my room, and only one side of his tank is uncovered. The other sides have wallpaper on them. It lets light through, but you can't see through it. And I have to bend down to see him poking out, he's not by any means majorly exposed. He also has like 4 hides in there, one that's facing away from the visible side, so if he truly doesn't want to be seen he goes there. He's done so a few times.
And I've gone through a couple setups, and I think that changing his setup once again would only harass the poor sucker more at this point.

[Absololol]

Generally what you're trying sounds like the right thing to do and seems consistent with the advice I'd usually give. Which is to thaw the rodent in the same room as the snake (use cooler water - warmer generally makes it easier for bacteria to grow when it's defrosting), then using the hairdryer to focus on the head of the rodent (the head is naturally hotter than the body in mammals and it being hotter will encourage the snake to strike there) and offering it the dark.

He might be nervous of your heat signature. You say he's scared of tongs. Even when you've dangled the rodent down, if he can see a big blob of human sized heat he may be put off by it. Are you standing as far back as possible?

The fact that he's interested in his heat emitter is a good sign, it sounds like maybe he's interpreting it as a source of food heat if he is 'harassing' it, but then getting disinterested because it doesn't smell of food. That suggests to me that he's hungry.

Are you interacting with him each day? He might want to eat but be nervous because he anticipates human contact. I would avoid even touching him or bothering him at all for at least a few days between attempts. (But you say he's been force fed by a vet? This is usually a last resort and isn't usually done unless the snake has gone a LONG time without eating.)

One thing it might be is that your hot side temperatures are a tiny bit low. It mightn't even make a difference but you usually want to be aiming around 88. I wouldn't expect it being a little bit cooler to affect his appetite, but it might do - no harm in trying it. I'd bump up his temps a bit, leave him for a minimum of 5 days, and then:

*defrost rat/mouse in cool water in the same room as him
*wait until dark and as low light as possible
*use a hairdryer to focus on the head. Open his enclosure when you're doing this to 'waft' the smell in - if he starts going *blelele* with his tongue it's a good sign.
*Grip the rodent not by the tail - they don't come flying down in nature. Try to grip by the hips and imitate walking and keep yourself as far away and out of sight as you physically can
*If he shows even a tiny bit of interest, you can keep reheating. If after quite a few attempts it just isn't getting anywhere, reheat a final time and leave outside one of his hides or in the open and remove in the morning if uneaten.

I know I've just kind of given the same advice but there's a reason you've been given it - it usually works! Unless I'm misreading the situation it doesn't seem like it's been too long and you may be stressing him out by trying to often - sorry if I've misinterpreted or that isn't the case. I'm just surprised to hear of forcefeeding after 3 months - but I suppose growing snakes are going to be more sensitive to periods without food.

I'm sure a lot more experienced people will be along to add their tips or correct me. I'm sure he'll be eating in the end.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[walzon1]

He appears to be afraid of live mice, so I don't think that would work, unfortunately. Also, he is not in a high traffic area. He is in my room, and only one side of his tank is uncovered. The other sides have wallpaper on them. It lets light through, but you can't see through it. And I have to bend down to see him poking out, he's not by any means majorly exposed. He also has like 4 hides in there, one that's facing away from the visible side, so if he truly doesn't want to be seen he goes there. He's done so a few times.
And I've gone through a couple setups, and I think that changing his setup once again would only harass the poor sucker more at this point.

So, afraid of mice and you can't get rats, afraid of tongs, and won't eat f/t. Sounds hopeless, good luck.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[smakemom]

Generally what you're trying sounds like the right thing to do and seems consistent with the advice I'd usually give. Which is to thaw the rodent in the same room as the snake (use cooler water - warmer generally makes it easier for bacteria to grow when it's defrosting), then using the hairdryer to focus on the head of the rodent (the head is naturally hotter than the body in mammals and it being hotter will encourage the snake to strike there) and offering it the dark.

He might be nervous of your heat signature. You say he's scared of tongs. Even when you've dangled the rodent down, if he can see a big blob of human sized heat he may be put off by it. Are you standing as far back as possible?

The fact that he's interested in his heat emitter is a good sign, it sounds like maybe he's interpreting it as a source of food heat if he is 'harassing' it, but then getting disinterested because it doesn't smell of food. That suggests to me that he's hungry.

Are you interacting with him each day? He might want to eat but be nervous because he anticipates human contact. I would avoid even touching him or bothering him at all for at least a few days between attempts. (But you say he's been force fed by a vet? This is usually a last resort and isn't usually done unless the snake has gone a LONG time without eating.)

One thing it might be is that your hot side temperatures are a tiny bit low. It mightn't even make a difference but you usually want to be aiming around 88. I wouldn't expect it being a little bit cooler to affect his appetite, but it might do - no harm in trying it. I'd bump up his temps a bit, leave him for a minimum of 5 days, and then:

*defrost rat/mouse in cool water in the same room as him
*wait until dark and as low light as possible
*use a hairdryer to focus on the head. Open his enclosure when you're doing this to 'waft' the smell in - if he starts going *blelele* with his tongue it's a good sign.
*Grip the rodent not by the tail - they don't come flying down in nature. Try to grip by the hips and imitate walking and keep yourself as far away and out of sight as you physically can
*If he shows even a tiny bit of interest, you can keep reheating. If after quite a few attempts it just isn't getting anywhere, reheat a final time and leave outside one of his hides or in the open and remove in the morning if uneaten.

I know I've just kind of given the same advice but there's a reason you've been given it - it usually works! Unless I'm misreading the situation it doesn't seem like it's been too long and you may be stressing him out by trying to often - sorry if I've misinterpreted or that isn't the case. I'm just surprised to hear of forcefeeding after 3 months - but I suppose growing snakes are going to be more sensitive to periods without food.

I'm sure a lot more experienced people will be along to add their tips or correct me. I'm sure he'll be eating in the end.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Thank you for all of this. I will try the cool water + hairdryer focused on head thing next attempt.
It's possible my heat signature is putting him off. I'm actually an unnaturally warm person, lol. So this is very possible. I'll also try your method with the tongs and stand back farther. I'll bump his tank temps, too.

Concerning the force feeding, I was getting very scared. I personally think that my snake is rather skinny, as his spine is starting to become rather prominent. He is very young from my understanding, so I was growing more worried by the day. I know that force feeding has its risks and is by all means a last-ditch effort to get some food in your snake. I may have been premature with it, but my anxiety was about it had me too tightly wound, and I gave into the temptation of it.